Ghost_MH Posted June 29, 2021 Share Posted June 29, 2021 20 minutes ago, TwinIon said: Don't get me wrong, I support breaking Facebook up, I just didn't think the FTC could prove a monopoly here, especially given current antitrust standards. When it comes to Facebook, what do they have a monopoly in? Social networking? They can point to Twitter, Snapchat, YouTube, Reddit, Tik Tok, Pintersest, Linked In, and all the sites like WeChat that don't get as much play in the States. Then you get into messaging, where they clearly don't have a monopoly with competitors like iMessage, Telegram, and SMS/RCS. Then you have even more dubiously defined competitors when you get into things like Fortnite as a social space or email as internet communication. All this is why the FTC didn't really even define a market or Facebook's share of it. Then you have the question of where they actually make their money, which is internet advertising, in which they're a dominant player, but not even the dominant player, and they have two trillion dollar plus companies (Amazon and Apple) coming for them. Additionally, Facebook would argue that internet advertising itself is only a subset of the larger advertising space, where they're really far from being a monopolist. Which is all almost beside the point when the consumer welfare standard is still in place and you can't prove consumer harm because everything is free. They have a near monopoly on Internet messaging services. Facebook messenger and WhatsApp combine for some 3.5b active users. Telegram is a small fraction of that and iMessage doesn't count here as an Apple-exclusive platform that mostly replaces SMS for iOS users. The only platform that even comes close is WeChat and their reach in the US is tenuous, at best. Facebook specifically bought WhatsApp to close the gap on messaging as WhatsApp was Facebook Messenger's only legitimate rival outside of China. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted June 29, 2021 Share Posted June 29, 2021 1 minute ago, Jason said: Yes, because Facebook owning Whatsapp increases the amount of your data being held by a single entity. Again, I don’t know much about this as I only use WhatsApp to talk to some of my Chinese business contacts on occasion, but isn’t WhatsApp an encrypted messaging client. I understand the sorts of data that FB is collecting, but what is WhatsApp collecting as an encrypted messaging client? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jason Posted June 29, 2021 Share Posted June 29, 2021 3 minutes ago, sblfilms said: Again, I don’t know much about this as I only use WhatsApp to talk to some of my Chinese business contacts on occasion, but isn’t WhatsApp an encrypted messaging client. I understand the sorts of data that FB is collecting, but what is WhatsApp collecting as an encrypted messaging client? metadata Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
b_m_b_m_b_m Posted June 29, 2021 Author Share Posted June 29, 2021 The consumer benefit standard has been an abject disaster Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Joe Posted June 29, 2021 Share Posted June 29, 2021 WhatsApp is Re-Launching its Controversial Privacy Policy Update, Will Penalize Users that Don't Accept WWW.SOCIALMEDIATODAY.COM WhatsApp is rolling out its controversial Privacy Policy update once again, which will see it share some information with parent company Facebook. It’s not the end of the world, but it does seem like a genuine slippery slope thing. It’s only the beginning of what they probably have planned and it’s why Telegram and Signal are growing so quickly. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted June 29, 2021 Share Posted June 29, 2021 1 minute ago, Ghost_MH said: They have a near monopoly on Internet messaging services. Facebook messenger and WhatsApp combine for some 3.5b active users. Telegram is a small fraction of that and iMessage doesn't count here as an Apple-exclusive platform that mostly replaces SMS for iOS users. The only platform that even comes close is WeChat and their reach in the US is tenuous, at best. Facebook specifically bought WhatsApp to close the gap on messaging as WhatsApp was Facebook Messenger's only legitimate rival outside of China. I understand that, I’m asking what is the benefit to consumers of WhatsApp being outside of Facebook? Like, I can think of many specific reasons that Fox being outside of Disney was a benefit to consumers. Things like availability of product, as Fox titles now reside under the stupid vaulting system of Disney. Pricing as Disney dramatically increased the prices on Fox titles to all outlets besides D+. Even product output as Disney has set Fox (and it’s affiliated entities) from 40ish titles a year down to 10-15. Those things are explicitly negative to consumers as they pay more and get less product. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted June 29, 2021 Share Posted June 29, 2021 2 minutes ago, Jason said: metadata Can you be more specific? How is such information used? How is it beneficial/harmful to consumers? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ghost_MH Posted June 29, 2021 Share Posted June 29, 2021 15 minutes ago, sblfilms said: I’m curious how Facebook could be broken up in a way that benefits consumers. Is WhatsApp fundamentally better for consumers if owned by a different entity? This is an honest question for those who know much more about this stuff than I. Facebook is currently in the process of merging messaging between Facebook Messenger, WhatsApp, and Instagram. They've already added some really sketchy stuff to WhatsApp's EULA that brings it more in line with what an end user would expect to give Facebook rather than what should be a simple messaging app. Here's an example, one of the first things Facebook has done to WhatsApp to bring it in line with Facebook Messenger is allow anyone to add anyone to a group chat. This was done to facilitate Facebook's e-commerce push for WhatsApp. It also now gives WhatsApp the right to share contacts details on your phone with Facebook, regardless of whether or not they have an account. This is cool because Facebook just keeps having data breaches it just doesn't care about. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted June 29, 2021 Share Posted June 29, 2021 2 minutes ago, Ghost_MH said: Facebook is currently in the process of merging messaging between Facebook Messenger, WhatsApp, and Instagram. They've already added some really sketchy stuff to WhatsApp's EULA that brings it more in line with what an end user would expect to give Facebook rather than what should be a simple messaging app. Hers an example, one of the first things Facebook has done to WhatsApp to bring it in line with Facebook Messenger is allow anyone to add anyone to a group chat. This was done to facilitate Facebook's e-commerce push for WhatsApp. It also now gives WhatsApp the right to share contacts details on your phone with Facebook, regardless of whether or not they have an account. This is cool because Facebook just keeps having data breaches it just doesn't care about. So it sounds like WhatsApp is going away in a similar way to what Disney did to Fox. It will eventually just be a name with the underlying property gone. This is helpful, thank you! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jason Posted June 29, 2021 Share Posted June 29, 2021 Metadata and Privacy - A Technical and Legal Overview - Office of the Privacy Commissioner of Canada WWW.PRIV.GC.CA A Technical and Legal Overview on Metadata and Privacy. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ghost_MH Posted June 29, 2021 Share Posted June 29, 2021 10 minutes ago, sblfilms said: So it sounds like WhatsApp is going away in a similar way to what Disney did to Fox. It will eventually just be a name with the underlying property gone. This is helpful, thank you! Pretty much. Facebook announced years ago that, on its backend, they're all just going to be Facebook Messenger. Zuckerberg Plans to Integrate WhatsApp, Instagram and Facebook Messenger - The New York Times WWW.NYTIMES.COM Facebook’s chief executive has asserted control over its sprawling divisions and mandated the social network’s messaging services be knitted together. Facebook imagines a world where Facebook users can message WhatsApp users that can private message Instagram users. The data for its users will look the same to Facebook, regardless of the platform there coming in from, and that's why each platform's EULA was updated as such. The cool part is that this means the next time Facebook is breached and decides not to tell anyone about it, your data and all your friends' and family's data could be comprised as well since Facebook is storing it all in the same place. Facebook doesn't care because nobody is holding them accountable for any of the breaches they're experiencing. What did they say the last time they were breached? I think it was that nobody's data is truly safe online and that breaches happen all the time, so deal with it. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TwinIon Posted June 30, 2021 Share Posted June 30, 2021 23 hours ago, Ghost_MH said: They have a near monopoly on Internet messaging services. Facebook messenger and WhatsApp combine for some 3.5b active users. Telegram is a small fraction of that and iMessage doesn't count here as an Apple-exclusive platform that mostly replaces SMS for iOS users. The only platform that even comes close is WeChat and their reach in the US is tenuous, at best. Facebook specifically bought WhatsApp to close the gap on messaging as WhatsApp was Facebook Messenger's only legitimate rival outside of China. That's a really difficult market to define to a court though. You might not count iMessage, but Facebook's lawyers could probably successfully argue otherwise, same with SMS. Plus, tons of apps have messaging features built into them, from Twitter to Venmo to Google Photos. Speaking of Google, they're constantly launching messaging products. Then you have all the messaging platforms that Facebook is failing to compete against, like Slack and Teams. Yeah, you might think they're a clearly different market, but if you're talking about messages sent over the internet, it's not a stretch for Facebook to tell a court, "look at these innovative new products with millions of users that send messages over the internet that are demolishing our competing products." So from a court's perspective, they have to be convinced not only that some very specific subset of messaging constitutes a definable market, but also that Facebook lacks competition in that market, that they stifle innovation, and that their monopoly status inflicts consumer harm. Given the number of apps that are constantly coming out that in some way include messaging features, I think there's a good argument to be made that innovation in the space continues. And again, when it comes to consumer welfare, the current standard is that the consumer is harmed when prices go up. Given that Facebook's purchase of WhatsApp only made it free, and both Facebook and many of it's competitors are free, there's no consumer harm here. Now, if you could change that standard, then maybe there'd be a real case here, but under the current situation, I just don't see a court ruling against Facebook. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Keyser_Soze Posted July 6, 2021 Share Posted July 6, 2021 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
brucoe Posted July 6, 2021 Share Posted July 6, 2021 The problem with handling anything nefarious that Facebook is doing is that it is extremely technical to the people who decide whether or not to regulate such things. We're basically relying on people whose experience is in very easy to understand entities like gasoline and media companies to determine what controls need to happen on an industry that is basically creating the industry they're supposed to monitor. We saw this during hearings where senators asked Zuckerberg basic questions about the Internet that their ten year old kids already could answer, yet they felt no shame in asking extremely stupid questions. This is why I don't think we're going to end up in a better situation when we're done with all this. Either they're going to do nothing (because they don't know what to do or even understand the industry they're trying to maintain) or they're going to do drastic things that will hurt all types of innovation because they see 2030 solutions in the eyes of a 1950 mentality. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CitizenVectron Posted July 6, 2021 Share Posted July 6, 2021 6 hours ago, Keyser_Soze said: 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ghost_MH Posted August 20, 2021 Share Posted August 20, 2021 The FTC has refiled, but with a more targeted lawsuit... FTC: Facebook was bad at business, so it “illegally bought or buried” competition ARSTECHNICA.COM FTC chair Lina Khan cast deciding vote in decision to refile. This sounds better than their previous case. Also, I love the detail that Facebook bought Onavo, a VPN service, specifically to track its users and figure out which competitors they needed to squash. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
legend Posted August 25, 2021 Share Posted August 25, 2021 On 6/29/2021 at 1:16 PM, sblfilms said: I’m curious how Facebook could be broken up in a way that benefits consumers. Is WhatsApp fundamentally better for consumers if owned by a different entity? This is an honest question for those who know much more about this stuff than I. Well, I'd own an Oculus Quest if Facebook didn't own and required a Facebook login. I really don't want Facebook tracking VR usage or any device usage. EDIT: Apparently I'm responding to a post as old as the first land animals. But maybe the response is still relevant Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
b_m_b_m_b_m Posted September 13, 2021 Author Share Posted September 13, 2021 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ghost_MH Posted September 15, 2021 Share Posted September 15, 2021 In case you ever, for even a second, stopped thinking Facebook was the worst... Instagram internal research: ‘We make body image issues worse for one in three teen girls’ WWW.THEVERGE.COM Facebook isn’t been open about Instagram’s negative influence Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brian Posted September 20, 2021 Share Posted September 20, 2021 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SuperSpreader Posted September 20, 2021 Share Posted September 20, 2021 3 minutes ago, ManUtdRedDevils said: Two Robots had dinner and planned dominating humanity. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
b_m_b_m_b_m Posted September 21, 2021 Author Share Posted September 21, 2021 Capital is self serving and will waste no time aligning itself with fascists boy I'm shocked Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ghost_MH Posted September 22, 2021 Share Posted September 22, 2021 Cool. Turns out Facebook's own oversight board (That is, the group FACEBOOK, themselves, created to prove they were fairly applying their moderation rules.) has no idea what Facebook actually is doing in terms of moderation since Facebook doesn't share information and lies to them. Facebook’s oversight board demands clarity on rules for high-profile users ARSTECHNICA.COM Social media platform has come under scrutiny for moderation and enforcement policies. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kal-El814 Posted September 23, 2021 Share Posted September 23, 2021 Social media was a mistake Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ghost_MH Posted September 23, 2021 Share Posted September 23, 2021 39 minutes ago, Kal-El814 said: Social media was a mistake Here are their names... Joseph Mercola Robert F. Kennedy, Jr. Ty and Charlene Bollinger Sherri Tenpenny Rizza Islam Rashid Buttar Erin Elizabeth Sayer Ji Kelly Brogan Christiane Northrup Ben Tapper Kevin Jenkins These people are, literally, responsible for hundreds of thousands of deaths. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fizzzzle Posted September 23, 2021 Share Posted September 23, 2021 Scientists: 4 years of undergrad multiple years of grad school PhD or MD Years and years of research Say "you should get the vaccine, it's fine." Your stupid cousin on facebook: "I need to do my own research first." Sorry cousin, I didn't know you were planning on spending the next 10 years of your life dedicating all of your time studying vaccines and conducting studies verified by peer review. Last time I brought up how fucking stupid that line of logic is, the person asked me what peer review was. It's getting exhausting. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted September 27, 2021 Share Posted September 27, 2021 Facebook paid billions extra to the FTC to spare Zuckerberg in data suit, shareholders allege WWW.POLITICO.COM And apparently the whistle blowers get paid part of the fine dollars, so the person who did this may have become a billionaire by doing so and FB agreeing to the significantly larger fine for all theee other perks. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ricofoley Posted September 29, 2021 Share Posted September 29, 2021 Somebody at Facebook flipped the big switch labelled Reactionary Horseshit from on to off yesterday. Usually like 7 of these are Ben Shapiro. 1 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jason Posted September 30, 2021 Share Posted September 30, 2021 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
b_m_b_m_b_m Posted October 1, 2021 Author Share Posted October 1, 2021 5 hours ago, Jason said: Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jason Posted October 1, 2021 Share Posted October 1, 2021 1 hour ago, b_m_b_m_b_m said: Okay he should have actually talked about that then instead of making himself look like he doesn't understand the concept of a fake/alt/secondary account (apparently finsta = fake insta). Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
heydude93 Posted October 1, 2021 Share Posted October 1, 2021 Facebook currently feels like 2008-2010 Myspace. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SuperSpreader Posted October 1, 2021 Share Posted October 1, 2021 2 hours ago, heydude93 said: Facebook currently feels like 2008-2010 Myspace. Elaborate Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
b_m_b_m_b_m Posted October 1, 2021 Author Share Posted October 1, 2021 17 hours ago, Jason said: Okay he should have actually talked about that then instead of making himself look like he doesn't understand the concept of a fake/alt/secondary account (apparently finsta = fake insta). 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Commissar SFLUFAN Posted October 3, 2021 Share Posted October 3, 2021 Facebook whistleblower to claim company contributed to Capitol attack | US Capitol attack | The Guardian WWW.THEGUARDIAN.COM Former employee is set to air her claims and reveal her identity in an interview airing Sunday night on CBS 60 Minutes Quote A whistleblower at Facebook will say that thousands of pages of internal company research she turned over to federal regulators proves the social media giant is deceptively claiming effectiveness in its efforts to eradicate hate and misinformation and it contributed to the January 6 attack on the Capitol in Washington DC. The former employee is set to air her claims and reveal her identity in an interview airing Sunday night on CBS 60 Minutes ahead of a scheduled appearance at a Senate hearing on Tuesday. In an internal 1,500-word memo titled Our position on Polarization and Election sent out on Friday, Facebook’s vice-president of global affairs, Nick Clegg, acknowledged that the whistleblower would accuse the company of contributing to the 6 January Capitol riot and called the claims “misleading”. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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