Joe Posted July 9, 2020 Share Posted July 9, 2020 Just now, Bloodporne said: I wonder which is more hellfire-hot garbage, NJ Transit (or is it PATH, I don't know) or the LIRR? If it even mildly drizzles, the train is delayed an hour and then strands you somewhere in Queens and tells you to take a cab to Long Island. The PATH is actually amazing, relatively speaking. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
skillzdadirecta Posted July 9, 2020 Share Posted July 9, 2020 8 minutes ago, b_m_b_m_b_m said: Doesn't have to be just public transit. Could be bike riding, electric or otherwise. Hell, you could increase social distancing by running more bus's and more trains. We don't *need* cars in cities. Just look outside our borders to see this. That said, density (needed for transit/"alternative transportation" usage to not suck) isn't the issue with the pandemic lol. This is why notoriously dense Phoenix and Houston are the major hotspots as opposed to the sprawling Asian metropolises of Hong Kong and Seoul. I never said it was the issue... it's about perception. I've been a LIFELONG commuter and user of public transportation here in the NY/NJ area AND in LA. I used to take the bus into the city and then take a train up to my job and once the pandemic started to flare up in NY, I stopped taking the Subway and would walk the 20 plus blocks from where I got off the bus to my job. When the shut down happened, I quit the bus as well and started driving into the city. I have no plans to start taking public transportation as long as I can help it and I know I'm not the only one. Again... I've only ever owned ONE car my whole life and that was my first car when I was like 19 or 20. 1 minute ago, Jose said: The PATH is actually amazing, relatively speaking. Yes it is... always runs. runs pretty frequently and is relatively cheap. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
b_m_b_m_b_m Posted July 9, 2020 Share Posted July 9, 2020 5 minutes ago, Jose said: Guys, we're never going to be Europe. We will always be dependent on cars in this country. That said, it's no excuse for our embarrassing infrastructure. The train I occasionally take to NYC from my NJ suburb is absolutely pathetic. Straight from the '70's. We don't need them in cities. Suburbs most of the time, but that's by deliberate design, which can somewhat be changed. Amsterdam was very car dependent until the 70's when they made the political decisions to move away from car based development. The fact of the matter is the planet cannot support ICE engines on this scale and gowing forward, and there doesn't appear to be enough battery like materials at this point to have alternatives for in kind replacement. To say nothing of the third world exploitation required to maintain our car dependent lifestyles Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
skillzdadirecta Posted July 9, 2020 Share Posted July 9, 2020 3 minutes ago, Bloodporne said: I wonder which is more hellfire-hot garbage, NJ Transit (or is it PATH, I don't know) or the LIRR? If it even mildly drizzles, the train is delayed an hour and then strands you somewhere in Queens and tells you to take a cab to Long Island. I've never depended on the LIRR but I remember a bunch of people I worked with CONSTANTLY having issues with that train. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
b_m_b_m_b_m Posted July 9, 2020 Share Posted July 9, 2020 Just now, skillzdadirecta said: I never said it was the issue... it's about perception. I've been a LIFELONG commuter and user of public transportation here in the NY/NJ area AND in LA. I used to take the bus into the city and then take a train up to my job and once the pandemic started to flare up in NY, I stopped taking the Subway and would walk the 20 plus blocks from where I got off the bus to my job. When the shut down happened, I quit the bus as well and started driving into the city. I have no plans to start taking public transportation as long as I can help it and I know I'm not the only one. Again... I've only ever owned ONE car my whole life and that was my first car when I was like 19 or 20. I get that, but eventually we will be out of this situation. Will probably be longer than other countries mind you, but there's a decent chance we will get there. But unless we're willing to spend a lot more money and resources to run transit in lower density areas density is required for effective transit. Don't get me wrong though I'm all for it! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jason Posted July 9, 2020 Share Posted July 9, 2020 10 minutes ago, Jose said: Guys, we're never going to be Europe. We will always be dependent on cars in this country. That said, it's no excuse for our embarrassing infrastructure. The train I occasionally take to NYC from my NJ suburb is absolutely pathetic. Straight from the '70's. News flash: Europe wasn't always Europe either. Manhattan didn't always look the way it currently does either: https://nyc.streetsblog.org/2016/07/01/the-new-york-of-2016-needs-the-wide-generous-sidewalks-of-1906/ The only difference is that the Dutch learned from their mistakes and undid them, while we refuse to learn from our mistakes. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Joe Posted July 9, 2020 Share Posted July 9, 2020 7 minutes ago, b_m_b_m_b_m said: We don't need them in cities. Suburbs most of the time, but that's by deliberate design, which can somewhat be changed. Amsterdam was very car dependent until the 70's when they made the political decisions to move away from car based development. The fact of the matter is the planet cannot support ICE engines on this scale and gowing forward, and there doesn't appear to be enough battery like materials at this point to have alternatives for in kind replacement. To say nothing of the third world exploitation required to maintain our car dependent lifestyles Just seems like we are at the point of no return, but I would love to be wrong! I grow tired of hearing Spanish family and friends constantly mock us for our infrastructure as though Spain wasn't a third-world country like 25 years ago lol. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
skillzdadirecta Posted July 9, 2020 Share Posted July 9, 2020 1 minute ago, b_m_b_m_b_m said: I get that, but eventually we will be out of this situation. Will probably be longer than other countries mind you, but there's a decent chance we will get there. Which is why I questioned the timing of this topic in the first place... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Joe Posted July 9, 2020 Share Posted July 9, 2020 2 minutes ago, Jason said: News flash: Europe wasn't always Europe either. Manhattan didn't always look the way it currently does either: https://nyc.streetsblog.org/2016/07/01/the-new-york-of-2016-needs-the-wide-generous-sidewalks-of-1906/ The only difference is that the Dutch learned from their mistakes and undid them, while we refuse to learn from our mistakes. Right, but that's my point. We show no ability to change or recognize our mistakes. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jason Posted July 9, 2020 Share Posted July 9, 2020 1 minute ago, Jose said: Just seems like we are at the point of no return For the exurbs? Maybe. Not for our actual urban areas. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
b_m_b_m_b_m Posted July 9, 2020 Share Posted July 9, 2020 1 minute ago, Jose said: Just seems like we are at the point of no return, but I would love to be wrong! I grow tired of hearing Spanish family and friends constantly mock us for our infrastructure as though Spain wasn't a third cross-country like 25 years ago lol. I won't disagree with the first part but it's worth advocating Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jason Posted July 9, 2020 Share Posted July 9, 2020 Just now, Jason said: For the exurbs? Maybe. Not for our actual urban areas. Throwing up our hands and declaring "better things aren't possible!" will definitely move the needle on that, though! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Joe Posted July 9, 2020 Share Posted July 9, 2020 1 minute ago, b_m_b_m_b_m said: I won't disagree with the first part but it's worth advocating How tf did autocorrect put cross-country in there? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Uaarkson Posted July 9, 2020 Share Posted July 9, 2020 Y’all are a bunch of downers. American cities have made tons of progress in the last 10 years. But we’re still waiting for the real paradigm shift, and I’m hopeful that the demand for safe, clean outdoor living in cities will curtail car culture in the long run. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
b_m_b_m_b_m Posted July 9, 2020 Share Posted July 9, 2020 Just now, skillzdadirecta said: Which is why I questioned the timing of this topic in the first place... Now's the time to strike! (And the article is new) To keep restaurants open safely* they need to have outdoor dining, and one option is we can take back space from cars and reimagine a new path forward, thus the article 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jason Posted July 9, 2020 Share Posted July 9, 2020 3 minutes ago, b_m_b_m_b_m said: Now's the time to strike! See: the changes Paris has made to get rid of cars this year. There's seriously such a cargo cult mentality about acting like walkable/bikeable European cities fell out of the skies in their current forms. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
skillzdadirecta Posted July 9, 2020 Share Posted July 9, 2020 Just now, b_m_b_m_b_m said: Now's the time to strike! (And the article is new) To keep restaurants open safely* they need to have outdoor dining, and one option is we can take back space from cars and reimagine a new path forward, thus the article There is no SAFELY keeping restaurants open. I was in LA a week or two ago and a bunch of restaurants on a strip I hang out at did indeed have outdoor seating (they normally do anyway) and sure people were outside, but because there's a row of restaurants right next to each other, there as a congestion of people just eating and talking with no masks on. I didn't even feel comfortable walking past them. We shouldn't even be THINKING about opening restaurants until we've handled this pandemic. NY and NJ and a couple of other states are at that point, but most of the country isn't. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kal-El814 Posted July 9, 2020 Share Posted July 9, 2020 Just now, Jason said: See: the changes Paris has made to get rid of cars this year. There's seriously such a cargo cult mentality about acting like walkable/bikeable European cities fell out of the skies in their current forms. I think it’s also worth keeping in mind that sometimes this shit takes forever to reach critical mass, and then shit happens and it can feel out of nowhere when it does. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Joe Posted July 9, 2020 Share Posted July 9, 2020 1 minute ago, Kal-El814 said: I think it’s also worth keeping in mind that sometimes this shit takes forever to reach critical mass, and then shit happens and it can feel out of nowhere when it does. True! In the meantime, it's rough, though. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jason Posted July 9, 2020 Share Posted July 9, 2020 Just now, Kal-El814 said: I think it’s also worth keeping in mind that sometimes this shit takes forever to reach critical mass, and then shit happens and it can feel out of nowhere when it does. This is very true, and why it's important to keep pushing for things like this even when it seems like it's not really going anywhere. Imagine if gay marriage advocates had just given up back when it seemed hopeless. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
b_m_b_m_b_m Posted July 9, 2020 Share Posted July 9, 2020 3 minutes ago, skillzdadirecta said: There is no SAFELY keeping restaurants open. I was in LA a week or two ago and a bunch of restaurants on a strip I hang out at did indeed have outdoor seating (they normally do anyway) and sure people were outside, but because there's a row of restaurants right next to each other, there as a congestion of people just eating and talking with no masks on. I didn't even feel comfortable walking past them. We shouldn't even be THINKING about opening restaurants until we've handled this pandemic. NY and NJ and a couple of other states are at that point, but most of the country isn't. I don't disagree. Outdoor dining is safe-ish though which is why I put the "*". Safe would be paying people and businesses that aren't essential to stay at home but not in this shit hole country Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bloodporne Posted July 9, 2020 Share Posted July 9, 2020 Is now the wrong time to mention that I own a muscle car with a V8? 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jason Posted July 9, 2020 Share Posted July 9, 2020 For more incremental change, the garbage situation in NYC really is fucking ludicrous. You don't need the systemic changes the NYT piece is talking about to just take away a parking spot per block for midblock dumpsters to keep the garbage off the sidewalks. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kal-El814 Posted July 9, 2020 Share Posted July 9, 2020 1 minute ago, Jose said: True! In the meantime, it's rough, though. Just now, Jason said: This is very true, and why it's important to keep pushing for things like this even when it seems like it's not really going anywhere. Imagine if gay marriage advocates had just given up back when it seemed hopeless. Agreed and agreed. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bloodporne Posted July 9, 2020 Share Posted July 9, 2020 2 minutes ago, Jason said: For more incremental change, the garbage situation in NYC really is fucking ludicrous. You don't need the systemic changes the NYT piece is talking about to just take away a parking spot per block for midblock dumpsters to keep the garbage off the sidewalks. It's not garbage, it's...New York patina. 6 minutes ago, Jason said: This is very true, and why it's important to keep pushing for things like this even when it seems like it's not really going anywhere. Imagine if gay marriage advocates had just given up back when it seemed hopeless. Well, that I agree with at the same time yeah. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
skillzdadirecta Posted July 9, 2020 Share Posted July 9, 2020 7 minutes ago, Bloodporne said: Is now the wrong time to mention that I own a muscle car with a V8? When I get back to LA, I'm buying a new car for the first time in MY LIFE. I've lived in LA for 12 and a half years without a car and was happy to do so. It took a global pandemic to change my mind and force me to buy a car. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Keyser_Soze Posted July 9, 2020 Share Posted July 9, 2020 20 minutes ago, skillzdadirecta said: When I get back to LA, I'm buying a new car for the first time in MY LIFE. I've lived in LA for 12 and a half years without a car and was happy to do so. It took a global pandemic to change my mind and force me to buy a car. See ya on the road! 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
skillzdadirecta Posted July 9, 2020 Share Posted July 9, 2020 26 minutes ago, Jason said: This is very true, and why it's important to keep pushing for things like this even when it seems like it's not really going anywhere. Imagine if gay marriage advocates had just given up back when it seemed hopeless. Not even close to the same thing but I'll bite... I don't ever remember a time where advocating for gay marriage was actually going AGAINST public health and safety. Yes we probably should move more towards car free cities. But publishing an article like this right now? When the LAST thing we should be doing is getting on to public transportation shows an incredible lack of self awareness and reinforces the notion that some progressives aren't truly interested in solving shit and more interested in proving their moral and intellectual superiority. Like why in GOD'S name are we even having this conversation? Do we care about Bus drivers, Subway and Transit workers who are disproportionately affected by the pandemic? Nope. The most responsible thing for people right now would be to stay their asses at home but if they can't, drive where they can in order to minimize contact with other people. Jesus we're fucked. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jason Posted July 9, 2020 Share Posted July 9, 2020 2 minutes ago, skillzdadirecta said: The most responsible thing for people right now would be to stay their asses at home but if they can't, drive where they can in order to minimize contact with other people. Or, you know, switch from transit to bikes, like is happening in Paris. It's ludicrous that bicycles aren't really a safe way to get around a neighborhood like DTLA. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
skillzdadirecta Posted July 9, 2020 Share Posted July 9, 2020 7 minutes ago, Jason said: Or, you know, switch from transit to bikes, like is happening in Paris. It's ludicrous that bicycles aren't really a safe way to get around a neighborhood like DTLA. NO WAY would I ride a bike in LA There is NOTHING safe about riding a bike in LA. I'd take my chances on a bike in NY before LA... but LA has started to add bike lanes at least. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Amazatron Posted July 9, 2020 Share Posted July 9, 2020 Hey let's just get rid of the people, problem solved. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
skillzdadirecta Posted July 9, 2020 Share Posted July 9, 2020 1 minute ago, Amazatron said: Hey let's just get rid of the people, problem solved. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jason Posted July 9, 2020 Share Posted July 9, 2020 8 minutes ago, skillzdadirecta said: NO WAY would I ride a bike in LA There is NOTHING safe about riding a bike in LA. I'd take my chances on a bike in NY before LA... and LA has started to add bike lanes at least. I don't mean that you in particular should favor a bike over a car right this instant, I'm saying it's ludicrous that several months into this it's still pulling teeth to get safe bike infrastructure in LA. Paris was choking on car traffic too, their recent switch to bikes included quickly pushing through a LOT of changes to make bicycling safer. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
skillzdadirecta Posted July 9, 2020 Share Posted July 9, 2020 2 minutes ago, Jason said: I don't mean that you in particular should favor a bike over a car right this instant, I'm saying it's ludicrous that several months into this it's still pulling teeth to get safe bike infrastructure in LA. Paris was choking on car traffic too, their recent switch to bikes including quickly pushing through a LOT of changes to make bicycling safer. Paris is 47 square miles... Los Angeles is 504 square miles so, yeah. I know West LA has become more bike friendly but Los Angeles is a VERY big city and it unique compared to other major cities in the world. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Joe Posted July 9, 2020 Share Posted July 9, 2020 I'll admit that I have not finished the article yet, but I will later. My question is based on some assumptions I have long held, but may not actually be correct. Aren't our cities in general just much more spread out compared to most of the first-world? Like how is my buddy that lives in the Heights going to bike his ass down to the DA's office where he works? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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