osxmatt Posted October 3, 2019 Share Posted October 3, 2019 Good lord can I just get 5 FUCKING MINUTES?? 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
osxmatt Posted October 3, 2019 Share Posted October 3, 2019 27 minutes ago, osxmatt said: Good lord can I just get 5 FUCKING MINUTES?? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jason Posted October 4, 2019 Share Posted October 4, 2019 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jason Posted October 4, 2019 Share Posted October 4, 2019 WaPo: Why did the president break the law? GOP: The president would never break the law. Trump: IT'S MY ABSOLUTE RIGHT TO BREAK THE LAW! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jason Posted October 4, 2019 Share Posted October 4, 2019 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jason Posted October 4, 2019 Share Posted October 4, 2019 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
osxmatt Posted October 4, 2019 Share Posted October 4, 2019 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Reputator Posted October 4, 2019 Share Posted October 4, 2019 You can read the rest here: Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
osxmatt Posted October 4, 2019 Share Posted October 4, 2019 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Reputator Posted October 4, 2019 Share Posted October 4, 2019 You know I wasn't sure an impeachment inquiry would actually affect anything, but damn if there hasn't been a freakin firehose of information coming out in the past week. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jason Posted October 4, 2019 Share Posted October 4, 2019 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Massdriver Posted October 4, 2019 Share Posted October 4, 2019 This whole thing has made me worry about humanity’s future with regard to determining what is a fact and what isn’t. I know it’s been going on a while and was already in overdrive with all the “fake news” talk, but in this case anyone can literally read the fucking call transcript and people are still believing politicians and commentaries rather than the actual facts! I am hoping we see impeachment support reach at least 65% of Americans over the coming weeks. It should already be at that. Fuck Hannity, Tucker, and all the right wing sell outs that are propping up a criminal and embarrassing our nation not just to the world, but to future Americans that have to read about what a joke we elected and so many supported. We fought against this nonsense just a few decades ago. This will go down in the books perhaps as the beginning of some type of dark chapter in our nation. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ricofoley Posted October 4, 2019 Share Posted October 4, 2019 It's gonna get so much worse than this as DeepFake videos become better and better 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Reputator Posted October 4, 2019 Share Posted October 4, 2019 5 minutes ago, Massdriver said: This whole thing has made me worry about humanity’s future with regard to determining what is a fact and what isn’t. I know it’s been going on a while and was already in overdrive with all the “fake news” talk, but in this case anyone can literally read the fucking call transcript and people are still believing politicians and commentaries rather than the actual facts! I am hoping we see impeachment support reach at least 65% of Americans over the coming weeks. It should already be at that. Fuck Hannity, Tucker, and all the right wing sell outs that are propping up a criminal and embarrassing our nation not just to the world, but to future Americans that have to read about what a joke we elected and so many supported. We fought against this nonsense just a few decades ago. This will go down in the books perhaps as the beginning of some type of dark chapter in our nation. Fact denying is their only defense. A few including Trump are also meandering towards "it's OK to do crime if you're the President", when they're backed against a wall because A) this really happened, and B) yes there's a law against that. There's been a lot of shifting of the goalposts, which is funny because calling them 'goalposts' makes it sound like a game and not the matter of law that we're actually dealing with. First it was that the call never happened, then it was "no quid pro quo", now it's "second and third-hand knowledge!" or defaming the whistleblower themselves over allegations they're a registered Democrat. Ignoring the firsthand account from the WH itself, naturally. If it's not goalpost shifting, it's deflection, and I think that's been the most common strategy. Attempting to take the spotlight off of what Trump did, a sitting President, and onto Biden's son, who was/is not a public official, and making false claims that he was being investigated while calls (bipartisan, mind you) were made for Ukraine's Prosecutor General to be ousted. The idea being that egregious crimes done by the President don't matter if alleged and unproven crimes may have been committed by a rival Democrat. I don't think this is a sign of an overall trajectory downward, though that may be the case in the long-term. I think we're due for a course correction and a wide public outcry for reform and dignity to return to the White House, but the fundamental truth is regardless of any short-term return to norm, we have learned an awful lesson about how our system allows these things to happen. And the growing fissure between parties will only encourage more manipulation in the future. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Massdriver Posted October 4, 2019 Share Posted October 4, 2019 3 minutes ago, Reputator said: Fact denying is their only defense. A few including Trump are also meandering towards "it's OK to do crime if you're the President", when they're backed against a wall because A) this really happened, and B) yes there's a law against that. There's been a lot of shifting of the goalposts, which is funny because calling them 'goalposts' makes it sound like a game and not the matter of law that we're actually dealing with. First it was that the call never happened, then it was "no quid pro quo", now it's "second and third-hand knowledge!" or defaming the whistleblower themselves over allegations they're a registered Democrat. Ignoring the firsthand account from the WH itself, naturally. If it's not goalpost shifting, it's deflection, and I think that's been the most common strategy. Attempting to take the spotlight off of what Trump did, a sitting President, and onto Biden's son, who was/is not a public official, and making false claims that he was being investigated while calls (bipartisan, mind you) were made for Ukraine's Prosecutor General to be ousted. The idea being that egregious crimes done by the President don't matter if alleged and unproven crimes may have been committed by a rival Democrat. I don't think this is a sign of an overall trajectory downward, though that may be the case in the long-term. I think we're due for a course correction and a wide public outcry for reform and dignity to return to the White House, but the fundamental truth is regardless of any short-term return to norm, we have learned an awful lesson about how our system allows these things to happen. And the growing fissure between parties will only encourage more manipulation in the future. I would need to see at least 65% of the public get fully on board with removing him for me to conclude we are going to have a short term correction. I am encouraged by the polls showing support going up. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Reputator Posted October 4, 2019 Share Posted October 4, 2019 1 minute ago, Massdriver said: I would need to see at least 65% of the public get fully on board with removing him for me to conclude we are going to have a short term correction. I am encouraged by the polls showing support going up. I don't know that you'll get that, though I'd like it. More likely while this won't result in impeachment, it will be damaging enough to hopefully lose him the election. So far that's a faint hope as his approval numbers haven't dropped much at all, and his campaign fundraising is breaking records. But should he win re-election, another four years of this crap is going to have people screaming for the adults to take the country back. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jason Posted October 4, 2019 Share Posted October 4, 2019 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
b_m_b_m_b_m Posted October 4, 2019 Author Share Posted October 4, 2019 1 hour ago, Massdriver said: anyone can literally read the fucking call transcript Heh, their messaging worked. It's a memo, not a transcript Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jason Posted October 4, 2019 Share Posted October 4, 2019 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
osxmatt Posted October 4, 2019 Share Posted October 4, 2019 How long until we adopt 2016 rationale, and that Trump *had* to collude with Ukraine to protect us from a possible Biden presidency? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jason Posted October 4, 2019 Share Posted October 4, 2019 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SaysWho? Posted October 4, 2019 Share Posted October 4, 2019 This text is interesting to me: Quote Concerns about Ukraine Becoming an "Instrument" in US. Politics: On July 21, 2019, Ambassador Taylor flagged President Zelensky's desire for Ukraine not to be used by the Trump Administration for its own domestic political purposes: [7/21/19, 1:45:54 Bill Taylor: Gordon, one thing Kurt and I talked about yesterday was Sasha Danyliuk's point that President is sensitive about Ukraine being taken seriously, not merely as an instrument in Washington domestic, reelection politics. [7/21/19, 4:45:44 Gordon Sondland: Absolutely, but we need to get the conversation started and the relationship built, irrespective of the pretext. I am worried about the alternative. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
silentbob Posted October 4, 2019 Share Posted October 4, 2019 I really hope people can take in the seriousness of what is happening NOW. This in the republican world has become yet another ManBearPig. It is a cause of some concern to the few, but will be ignored by the many as a nothing burger until it hurts them personally. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Signifyin(g)Monkey Posted October 4, 2019 Share Posted October 4, 2019 12 minutes ago, silentbob said: I really hope people can take in the seriousness of what is happening NOW. This in the republican world has become yet another ManBearPig. It is a cause of some concern to the few, but will be ignored by the many as a nothing burger until it hurts them personally. We really are living in alternate realities. According to conservative media (and non-traditional alt-right media like, say, Zerohedge) Trump did nothing wrong in suggesting Zelensky investigate Biden and Biden’s dealings with the Ukraine is the real story here. And I doubt that line is going to change, since the bulk of conservatives are buying it, or at least pretending to. Nor are conservatives ever going to believe anything from the NYT, CNN, WaPo, etc., even mere reports on transcripts. It’s like an informational firewall. I’m beginning to think if Trump started saying the sky was green, Fox and co. would convince a good 30-40% of the nation that the sky being blue is ‘fake news’. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
atom631 Posted October 4, 2019 Share Posted October 4, 2019 6 minutes ago, Signifyin(g)Monkey said: It’s like an informational firewall. I’m beginning to think if Trump started saying the sky was green, Fox and co. would convince a good 30-40% of the nation that the sky being blue is ‘fake news’. beginning? that's exactly how he got elected. he convinced his low IQ base that everyone else but Trump and Fox news are lying to them and their only salvation is believing in everything he says and does bc he has their best interest at heart. hes a magnificent con-man. gotta give him that. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
b_m_b_m_b_m Posted October 4, 2019 Author Share Posted October 4, 2019 14 minutes ago, Signifyin(g)Monkey said: We really are living in alternate realities. According to conservative media (and non-traditional alt-right media like, say, Zerohedge) Trump did nothing wrong in suggesting Zelensky investigate Biden and Biden’s dealings with the Ukraine is the real story here. And I doubt that line is going to change, since the bulk of conservatives are buying it, or at least pretending to. Nor are conservatives ever going to believe anything from the NYT, CNN, WaPo, etc., even mere reports on transcripts. It’s like an informational firewall. I’m beginning to think if Trump started saying the sky was green, Fox and co. would convince a good 30-40% of the nation that the sky being blue is ‘fake news’. https://www.mercurynews.com/2019/10/03/report-trump-pressed-xi-to-investigate-warren-too/?utm_source=share&utm_medium=ios_app&utm_name=iossmf Quote During a phone call with Xi on June 18, Trump raised Biden’s political prospects as well as those of Sen. Elizabeth Warren, who by then had started rising in the polls, according to two people familiar with the discussion. I'd like to see their justification for this, as I love to watch (mental) gymnastics. I could easily see how the Bidens are a proxy for "corruption" or whatever but getting Liz in there is a major stretch Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SuperSpreader Posted October 4, 2019 Share Posted October 4, 2019 Trump creates a smoke screen so by the thick of it you're not even sure what you were arguing about and it confuses the point. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SaysWho? Posted October 4, 2019 Share Posted October 4, 2019 1 hour ago, Signifyin(g)Monkey said: We really are living in alternate realities. According to conservative media (and non-traditional alt-right media like, say, Zerohedge) Trump did nothing wrong in suggesting Zelensky investigate Biden and Biden’s dealings with the Ukraine is the real story here. And I doubt that line is going to change, since the bulk of conservatives are buying it, or at least pretending to. Nor are conservatives ever going to believe anything from the NYT, CNN, WaPo, etc., even mere reports on transcripts. It’s like an informational firewall. I’m beginning to think if Trump started saying the sky was green, Fox and co. would convince a good 30-40% of the nation that the sky being blue is ‘fake news’. I linked some dumbass to the IG's comments that the whistleblower law wasn't changed in August (some conspiracy theory saying they changed the law right before the complaint was filed) and that it had been the same since 2018, and he kept demanding I prove that even thought my first comment was a link to Trump's own inspector general. He shared something from Mark Levin and then shared something from The Federalist, and... well, the only reason I'm FB friends with him is because I like to observe him and others as if I'm Jane Goodall to get a sense as to what the people with no hope are thinking. Then again, his niece broke away from her family's Christian roots (she used to be born-again) because she noticed so much was wrong but the policies she thought she supported didn't help, so now she's a hardcore liberal. So maybe there is hope, but right now, woosh! 5 minutes ago, 2user1cup said: Trump creates a smoke screen so by the thick of it you're not even sure what you were arguing about and it confuses the point. He's fucking up right now if that's his goal. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SuperSpreader Posted October 4, 2019 Share Posted October 4, 2019 1 minute ago, SaysWho? said: He's fucking up right now if that's his goal. Show some respect to OUR president! 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
legend Posted October 4, 2019 Share Posted October 4, 2019 Wrong thread. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
silentbob Posted October 4, 2019 Share Posted October 4, 2019 23 minutes ago, 2user1cup said: Trump creates a smoke screen so by the thick of it you're not even sure what you were arguing about and it confuses the point. Can’t see the smoking gun against him if he is already in the smoke itself hiding Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Signifyin(g)Monkey Posted October 4, 2019 Share Posted October 4, 2019 1 hour ago, b_m_b_m_b_m said: https://www.mercurynews.com/2019/10/03/report-trump-pressed-xi-to-investigate-warren-too/?utm_source=share&utm_medium=ios_app&utm_name=iossmf I'd like to see their justification for this, as I love to watch (mental) gymnastics. I could easily see how the Bidens are a proxy for "corruption" or whatever but getting Liz in there is a major stretch They won’t need to justify it. Conservative media (save maybe for the National Review) likely won’t mention it, thus relegating proof of said call’s existence to reports by news outlets conservatives see as disinformation arms of the deep state or at least don’t trust at a gut level, thus allowing them to effectively ignore it. When that method reaches its limit, they’ll portray the report as suspect and imply it was fabricated for political reasons. (Probably without saying that directly) Seriously—two alternate realities. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
b_m_b_m_b_m Posted October 4, 2019 Author Share Posted October 4, 2019 8 minutes ago, Signifyin(g)Monkey said: They won’t need to justify it. Conservative media (save maybe for the National Review) likely won’t mention it, thus relegating proof of said call’s existence to reports by news outlets conservatives see as disinformation arms of the deep state or at least don’t trust at a gut level, thus allowing them to effectively ignore it. When that method reaches its limit, they’ll portray the report as suspect and imply it was fabricated for political reasons. (Probably without saying that directly) Seriously—two alternate realities. It really just have to break through to the Romney's of the world-- obviously not forever Trump-ers, but "for tax cuts, deregulation, and judges" to turn on him. The dam won't hold forever. In a recent poll, there is only 25% of people who say there's nothing Trump can do to keep them from supporting him. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Signifyin(g)Monkey Posted October 4, 2019 Share Posted October 4, 2019 BTW, referring to the transcript between Sondland and Taylor cited above, expect the following line to get a lot of play in the conservative mediasphere very soon: Quote "Bill, I believe you are incorrect about President Trump's intentions. The president has been crystal clear no quid pro quo's of any kind..." This will most certainly be taken as an exoneration of Trump in the Ukraine matter and used to bolster the 'witch hunt' narrative, as well as deflect attention from any new improprieties that are revealed in the future. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CitizenVectron Posted October 4, 2019 Share Posted October 4, 2019 I'm sure there is no political motivation of any kind, and ample evidence to warrant such an investigation! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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