Marcelus Posted August 18, 2019 Share Posted August 18, 2019 Just now, mclumber1 said: I was at a store the day after El Paso and I got a look from a latino guy as if he was making sure I wasn't a crazy white nationalist. I honestly don't blame him. If I was targeted by a shooter (or an entire movement) because of my ethnicity, I would be wary of people who look like they belong to that group. that can't be how you initially felt, right? i'd have felt uncomfortable in either role Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mclumber1 Posted August 18, 2019 Share Posted August 18, 2019 24 minutes ago, Jwheel86 said: My friend solved gun control: capitalism. Require gun owners carry liability insurance for wrongful deaths up to $1 million dollars per death as well as wrongful injury and cost of First Responders. Gun owners can either purchase insurance that's not underwritten from the Federal Government, or purchase a private underwritten plan. Private insurers would be forbidden from denying coverage but can set premiums based on risk models they develop. They can also develop risk reduction actions the gun owner can do to reduce their risk profile (take a safety class, be a Veteran, take a mental health evaluation). Instead of us trying to decide what is and isn't a risk factor, let's let the invisible hand figure it out. The invisible hand would make the rates for people who live in urban areas, like blacks and latinos, sky high compared to their white, suburban and rural counterparts. A person living in these neighborhoods are going to be paying more than these people in these neighborhoods. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mclumber1 Posted August 18, 2019 Share Posted August 18, 2019 6 minutes ago, Marcelus said: that can't be how you initially felt, right? i'd have felt uncomfortable in either role I only really thought about it after I left the store and got in my car. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jwheel86 Posted August 18, 2019 Share Posted August 18, 2019 49 minutes ago, mclumber1 said: The invisible hand would make the rates for people who live in urban areas, like blacks and latinos, sky high compared to their white, suburban and rural counterparts. A person living in these neighborhoods are going to be paying more than these people in these neighborhoods. How many of those shooting in urban areas were lawful owned weapons? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SimpleG Posted August 18, 2019 Share Posted August 18, 2019 1 minute ago, Jwheel86 said: How many of those shooting in urban areas were lawful owned weapons? Regardless of how lawful they are , insurance co. will see people in those areas as a larger risk due to the increase in chance of firing the weapon. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SimpleG Posted August 18, 2019 Share Posted August 18, 2019 1 hour ago, Jwheel86 said: My friend solved gun control: capitalism. Require gun owners carry liability insurance for wrongful deaths up to $1 million dollars per death as well as wrongful injury and cost of First Responders. Gun owners can either purchase insurance that's not underwritten from the Federal Government, or purchase a private underwritten plan. Private insurers would be forbidden from denying coverage but can set premiums based on risk models they develop. They can also develop risk reduction actions the gun owner can do to reduce their risk profile (take a safety class, be a Veteran, take a mental health evaluation). Instead of us trying to decide what is and isn't a risk factor, let's let the invisible hand figure it out. This idea has been kicked around forever. Forcing someone to do something hardly falls under the "invisible hand". And good luck with forcing insurers to cover people. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jwheel86 Posted August 18, 2019 Share Posted August 18, 2019 6 minutes ago, SimpleG said: Regardless of how lawful they are , insurance co. will see people in those areas as a larger risk due to the increase in chance of firing the weapon. Sounds like a valid risk factor to me. If I own an AR-15 in an apartment complex and accidentally fire it killing my neighbor through the wall, I should be liable for that. The risk for that is lower in rural areas. Maybe the insurance company will reduce rates if you take a gun safety class. 1 minute ago, SimpleG said: This idea has been kicked around forever. Forcing someone to do something hardly falls under the "invisible hand". And good luck with forcing insurers to cover people. Why's it work for car insurance? If we have so many safe and law abiding gun owners, they should be able to prove it with their wallets. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mclumber1 Posted August 18, 2019 Share Posted August 18, 2019 16 minutes ago, Jwheel86 said: How many of those shooting in urban areas were lawful owned weapons? Hardly any. This would only affect those people who want to stay within the law. You would effectively price poor people and minorities out of legal gun ownership. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
b_m_b_m_b_m Posted August 18, 2019 Share Posted August 18, 2019 1 hour ago, mclumber1 said: The invisible hand would make the rates for people who live in urban areas, like blacks and latinos, sky high compared to their white, suburban and rural counterparts. A person living in these neighborhoods are going to be paying more than these people in these neighborhoods. You know the government can require one set of insurance rates without those criteria that literally discriminate on the basis of race or ethnicity Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mclumber1 Posted August 18, 2019 Share Posted August 18, 2019 3 minutes ago, b_m_b_m_b_m said: You know the government can require one set of insurance rates without those criteria that literally discriminate on the basis of race or ethnicity I thought we were using the invisible hand of the market doe. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
b_m_b_m_b_m Posted August 18, 2019 Share Posted August 18, 2019 There's no such thing as a free market save me the bullshit Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jwheel86 Posted August 18, 2019 Share Posted August 18, 2019 2 minutes ago, mclumber1 said: I thought we were using the invisible hand of the market doe. Why would I factor stats involving illegal guns into my pricing model? You're eliminating millions of customers that you can charge premiums. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mclumber1 Posted August 18, 2019 Share Posted August 18, 2019 2 minutes ago, Jwheel86 said: Why would I factor stats involving illegal guns into my pricing model? You're eliminating millions of customers that you can charge premiums. My boss lived in a trailer park temporarily while his house was being built, and he had to pay twice as much in auto insurance as myself - it was a baaad neighborhood. He just moved to a new neighborhood (gated community with low crime) so I wouldn't be surprised to see his premiums reduced drastically. I find it hard to believe insurance companies wouldn't take overall crime rate and other factors in to determining what premiums a gun owner would have to pay. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
b_m_b_m_b_m Posted August 18, 2019 Share Posted August 18, 2019 If they can't take those factors into account, by law, then they won't. It's not any more difficult. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jwheel86 Posted August 19, 2019 Share Posted August 19, 2019 13 minutes ago, mclumber1 said: My boss lived in a trailer park temporarily while his house was being built, and he had to pay twice as much in auto insurance as myself - it was a baaad neighborhood. He just moved to a new neighborhood (gated community with low crime) so I wouldn't be surprised to see his premiums reduced drastically. I find it hard to believe insurance companies wouldn't take overall crime rate and other factors in to determining what premiums a gun owner would have to pay. Or do those who are insured in that neighborhood present a higher risk to the insurance pool based on historical liability payouts? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mclumber1 Posted August 19, 2019 Share Posted August 19, 2019 Just now, Jwheel86 said: Or do those who are insured in that neighborhood present a higher risk to the insurance pool based on historical liability payouts? Maybe both? That part of Henderson is probably one of the worst in the city. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
b_m_b_m_b_m Posted August 19, 2019 Share Posted August 19, 2019 8 minutes ago, Jwheel86 said: Or do those who are insured in that neighborhood present a higher risk to the insurance pool based on historical liability payouts? The bigger risk comes from having a gun in the house, period. And all the "but but but never in my house/with my guns" idiots don't understand statistics or the effects of guns. Guns make domestic assault into homicide "easier", it makes a suicide attempt more likely to be successful, and access to guns makes these things possible. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jwheel86 Posted August 19, 2019 Share Posted August 19, 2019 30 minutes ago, b_m_b_m_b_m said: The bigger risk comes from having a gun in the house, period. And all the "but but but never in my house/with my guns" idiots don't understand statistics or the effects of guns. Guns make domestic assault into homicide "easier", it makes a suicide attempt more likely to be successful, and access to guns makes these things possible. Totally agree, which is why putting them on the financial hook for no real gun control should clear things up real fast. The gun manufacturing industry is going want the insurance cheap to maximize gun sales so I imagine many will start their own insurance companies, then they get hit with liability payouts and either have to raise premiums across the board or develop a model to filter out high risk sales to keep premiums low and sales up. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
b_m_b_m_b_m Posted August 19, 2019 Share Posted August 19, 2019 1 hour ago, Jwheel86 said: Totally agree, which is why putting them on the financial hook for no real gun control should clear things up real fast. The gun manufacturing industry is going want the insurance cheap to maximize gun sales so I imagine many will start their own insurance companies, then they get hit with liability payouts and either have to raise premiums across the board or develop a model to filter out high risk sales to keep premiums low and sales up. Owning a gun is high risk, there's no way around it. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
thewhyteboar Posted August 19, 2019 Share Posted August 19, 2019 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mclumber1 Posted August 19, 2019 Share Posted August 19, 2019 5 minutes ago, thewhyteboar said: Very fine people on both sides Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted August 19, 2019 Share Posted August 19, 2019 5 hours ago, b_m_b_m_b_m said: Owning a gun is high risk, there's no way around it. No, it’s not. It is a relatively higher risk than not, but neither owning nor not owning are statistically high risk behaviors. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Spawn_of_Apathy Posted August 19, 2019 Share Posted August 19, 2019 13 hours ago, b_m_b_m_b_m said: Owning a gun is high risk, there's no way around it. Higher risk, then. Owning a semi automatic rifle with a magazine capacity of 10 rounds or more would in all likelyhood have a higher insurance premium than bolt action hunting rifle. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
skillzdadirecta Posted August 19, 2019 Share Posted August 19, 2019 8 hours ago, sblfilms said: No, it’s not. It is a relatively higher risk than not, but neither owning nor not owning are statistically high risk behaviors. It actually is... statistics show that homes with guns in the house or more likely to have incidents of accidental shootings or a member of that family being shot than homes without. The gun lobby actively suppresses this data at the local, state and federal level. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted August 19, 2019 Share Posted August 19, 2019 2 hours ago, skillzdadirecta said: It actually is... statistics show that homes with guns in the house or more likely to have incidents of accidental shootings or a member of that family being shot than homes without. The gun lobby actively suppresses this data at the local, state and federal level. That is literally what I said The relative risk of injury is higher in a home with a gun than a home that doesn’t, but the actual risk of injury in either case is very low. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Commissar SFLUFAN Posted August 21, 2019 Share Posted August 21, 2019 Police thwarted six mass shootings and white supremacist attacks since El Paso https://www.theguardian.com/world/2019/aug/20/el-paso-shooting-plot-white-supremacist-attacks?CMP=Share_AndroidApp_Copy_to_clipboard Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
thewhyteboar Posted August 21, 2019 Share Posted August 21, 2019 2 hours ago, SFLUFAN said: Police thwarted six mass shootings and white supremacist attacks since El Paso https://www.theguardian.com/world/2019/aug/20/el-paso-shooting-plot-white-supremacist-attacks?CMP=Share_AndroidApp_Copy_to_clipboard I wonder if we will see an uptick of attacks on synagogues by those eager to go after "disloyal Jews." Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mclumber1 Posted August 21, 2019 Share Posted August 21, 2019 2 hours ago, thewhyteboar said: I wonder if we will see an uptick of attacks on synagogues by those eager to go after "disloyal Jews." To teach them a lesson! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Remarkableriots Posted August 26, 2019 Author Share Posted August 26, 2019 https://www.usatoday.com/story/news/nation/2019/08/25/alaska-school-shooting-threat-police-arrest-students-reported-plans/2116407001/ Quote Alaska authorities arrested two 13-year-old students for planning to bring a gun to their school and shoot people, the Juneau Police Department said in a release. Officers took the juveniles into custody Thursday morning at Floyd Dryden Middle School after receiving a report the previous night, police said. It's among the latest in a string of arrests for mass violence threats since the back-to-back shootings earlier this month that killed 31 people in El Paso and Dayton, Ohio. A classmate overheard the male students discuss the shooting plans, Juneau School District Superintendent Bridget Weiss told The Juneau Empire. The student's parents reported the threat to police. Police questioned the juveniles before school began Thursday and arrested them for making terroristic threats, a felony offense in Alaska, according to the police department. Classes continued as usual, Weiss said, and the district emailed parents to tell them what happened. “We really want students to know there are significant consequences now to making threats like this,” Weiss told the Empire. “Words and pictures matter. They do indicate threat.” Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
thewhyteboar Posted August 26, 2019 Share Posted August 26, 2019 1 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Remarkableriots Posted August 26, 2019 Author Share Posted August 26, 2019 https://torontosun.com/news/local-news/man-woman-charged-after-loaded-gun-left-in-ride-share Quote recent arrest offers more evidence that Toronto is awash in guns. Toronto Police say a bag left behind in a ride-share vehicle contained a loaded handgun. Around 11 p.m. on Friday, police say a man and a woman put several bags into a ride-share car in the Eglinton Ave. W. and Dufferin St. area. When they got to their destination, they left one bag behind. The bag, which was turned over to police, allegedly also contained ammunition and cash. It is also alleged that the gun’s serial number had been tampered with. Kingsley Dowrin and Vanessa Cosentino, both 19, face various firearms-related charges while Dowrin also is charged with two counts of failure to comply with probation and with recognizance. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
b_m_b_m_b_m Posted August 26, 2019 Share Posted August 26, 2019 Can't wait for guns, legally bought in the US no doubt, to flood across the Canadian border, cause gun crime, and have conservatives here point to Canada and say "see? All them gun laws and still gun crime! #shallnotinfringe" Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CitizenVectron Posted August 26, 2019 Share Posted August 26, 2019 Oh the guns here are 100% smuggled in from the US. Maybe we need a wall. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ghost_MH Posted August 26, 2019 Share Posted August 26, 2019 2 hours ago, b_m_b_m_b_m said: Can't wait for guns, legally bought in the US no doubt, to flood across the Canadian border, cause gun crime, and have conservatives here point to Canada and say "see? All them gun laws and still gun crime! #shallnotinfringe" No way that happens. It's not like there's already a country to our south that's overrun with American guns. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
b_m_b_m_b_m Posted August 30, 2019 Share Posted August 30, 2019 Very cool Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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