b_m_b_m_b_m Posted April 15, 2019 Share Posted April 15, 2019 Not that we have a responsibility to the global south, and our leaders aren't elected for them as well, but it's really hard for Americans to support free trade (which does have broad, shallow benefits to Americans) when it's reputation (primarily gathered after china joined the WTO) is a crushing loss for workers here with virtually no social safety net or effective job training/rehabilitation for individuals and small cities impacted. All that for cheaper widgets (due to relatively low wages and exporting of pollution and labor standards) and more efficient markets (necessary but a subtly felt effect) Fix the safety net, re/education systems, and getting at least some high wage work to smaller metro areas (e.g. through telecommuting or high speed regional rail for commuting to big cities) and free trade wouldn't be such a pariah. But the ball has been dropped in the past, and this is the natural result, no matter how right you are by the numbers. People remember losing the big factory in town, not the small number of jobs at many smaller companies that have popped up since then. Just like the tax law, people didn't really notice the lowered tax withholding/lower tax burden, but they did notice having to owe taxes or having a smaller refund. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RedSoxFan9 Posted April 15, 2019 Share Posted April 15, 2019 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jason Posted April 16, 2019 Share Posted April 16, 2019 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Greatoneshere Posted April 16, 2019 Share Posted April 16, 2019 20 hours ago, Massdriver said: You said Bernie or Warren are the way to go if we want to help as many people as possible, not that they are sincere or authentic. I don’t doubt Bernie believes he’s doing the right thing. Being wrong on trade is a big deal though and he’s wrong. He can’t be the person to help people if he wants to restrict trade with other nations. Why is TPP bad and NAFTA isn’t? They’re both good overall. No trade agreement would ever be perfect. And Bernie disagrees on NAFTA . https://www.sanders.senate.gov/newsroom/recent-business/sanders-statement-on-nafta-replacement- He thinks NAFTA is bad and the replacement is bad. He doesn’t believe in trading with poor countries. He never has and never will. He would hurt the global poor. I think @b_m_b_m_b_m said it better. TPP was bad. NAFTA wasn't, and I disagree with Bernie on that but there is reason to be against broad free trade. I think Bernie is simply trying to refocus the conversation to helping Americans who are being harmed by hyper capitalism, not being against the global poor. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Scott Posted April 16, 2019 Share Posted April 16, 2019 9 hours ago, RedSoxFan9 said: I hope Pete's campaign can withstand your constant barrage of sick, totally substantive retweet burns. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Massdriver Posted April 16, 2019 Share Posted April 16, 2019 @Greatoneshere, I respect @b_m_b_m_b_m and many others I debate with here, but I disagree with his very first statement about not having a responsibility to the global south. We have a responsibility to people everywhere in the world as humans and as a rich nation, just as the rich class in this country have an obligation to the poor citizens here. We are rich here, nearly all of us by world standards. Our duties to others do not magically disappear whenever an imaginary line is crossed. We should trade with peaceful nations and we should open our borders up to peaceful people throughout the world through mutually beneficial border agreements. These two things should go without saying since it actually benefits everyone here too. Many of the jobs lost throughout the 2000s and before were not because of trade. Technological progress in manufacturing alone is a huge factor in the secular decline of manufacturing jobs in America. We are quick to blame our trading partners, but even if we erected trade barriers and forced factories to be built here, robots would do most of the work. Those jobs are gone. The truth is the jobs are gone and politicians should have the guts to admit what economists universally say. Free trade is a net gain for both nations trading. They should then tell people what they will do to help the small portion of people negatively impacted. Standing against trade hurts the least fortunate globally and hurts consumers throughout the United States. Since Democrats are proposing so many social insurance programs, they are in the best position to tout the benefits of trade while offering help to those negatively impacted by it. Just a friendly reminder, the Nordic countries that Bernie used to mention in his 2016 campaign as shining beacons embrace free trade. Advocating protectionism is not the way to go. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Keyser_Soze Posted April 16, 2019 Share Posted April 16, 2019 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nokra Posted April 16, 2019 Share Posted April 16, 2019 This won't mean much to most here, but this brief bio was in the regional paper here this morning (obviously with Notre Dame on the cover): Basically just summarizing his bio and contrasting him to Trump. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Anathema- Posted April 17, 2019 Share Posted April 17, 2019 Well the American media constituency loves him. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RedSoxFan9 Posted April 17, 2019 Share Posted April 17, 2019 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
thewhyteboar Posted April 17, 2019 Share Posted April 17, 2019 You're not the only one gay for Buttigieg: 3 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GeneticBlueprint Posted April 17, 2019 Share Posted April 17, 2019 On 4/15/2019 at 6:20 PM, Jason said: He probably should have stayed in the closet about this part of his life. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Amazatron Posted April 17, 2019 Share Posted April 17, 2019 Err... 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Anathema- Posted April 17, 2019 Share Posted April 17, 2019 WAS IT OVER WHEN THE GERMANS BOMBED PEARL HARBOR? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Amazatron Posted April 17, 2019 Share Posted April 17, 2019 4 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SaysWho? Posted April 18, 2019 Share Posted April 18, 2019 I've been meaning to ask: Is the thread title IAW's idea, or did someone edit that? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jason Posted April 18, 2019 Share Posted April 18, 2019 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted April 18, 2019 Share Posted April 18, 2019 So is the first name logo thing just what we’re doing now? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GeneticBlueprint Posted April 18, 2019 Share Posted April 18, 2019 18 minutes ago, sblfilms said: So is the first name logo thing just what we’re doing now? Jeb! I mean... Yes! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Scott Posted April 18, 2019 Share Posted April 18, 2019 49 minutes ago, sblfilms said: So is the first name logo thing just what we’re doing now? I think it is if your last name is Buttigieg. 1 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ByWatterson Posted April 19, 2019 Author Share Posted April 19, 2019 19 hours ago, SaysWho? said: I've been meaning to ask: Is the thread title IAW's idea, or did someone edit that? ......I did it. AND I'M NOT SORRY BECAUSE GUYS: 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SaysWho? Posted April 19, 2019 Share Posted April 19, 2019 5 hours ago, ByWatterson said: ......I did it. AND I'M NOT SORRY BECAUSE GUYS: Damn, currently ahead of Harris, Booker, Warren and I guess Gillibrand? Warren and her list of policy proposals make her one of the strongest candidates for me, so far. Buttigieg is making a name for himself; it'd be a hilarious if he were a VP pick and got to debate Pence. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mclumber1 Posted April 19, 2019 Share Posted April 19, 2019 3 hours ago, SaysWho? said: Damn, currently ahead of Harris, Booker, Warren and I guess Gillibrand? Warren and her list of policy proposals make her one of the strongest candidates for me, so far. Buttigieg is making a name for himself; it'd be a hilarious if he were a VP pick and got to debate Pence. Pence after shaking hands with Buttigieg: 3 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
legend Posted April 23, 2019 Share Posted April 23, 2019 Anyone who is a fan willing to give me a summary of what they like that they think "Mayor Pete" is going to do? I haven't watched all of his town hall segment, but I find it worrying how much he can say that "sounds" good without actually saying anything. I don't really know what he'll do. I just know he's unhappy about similar things. And it makes me uncomfortable that not saying what he'll do is in fact his stated strategy: he wants to tell people what he cares about rather than the "minutiae" of policy. If I had other reason to believe he'd be good at policy, that could be okay. But right now, I don't. I don't expect to be a great judge of specific policy quality, but I can evaluate whether it seems like a candidate is actually trying to tackle the challenges in forming it, and then I can see how others respond to their proposals and how they respond in turn. Observing that allows me to build confidence that they will at least put in a competent effort, and that's what I'm missing with him. Saying what's wrong is easy. Addressing what's wrong is hard. I want evidence that he can do that latter. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Greatoneshere Posted April 23, 2019 Share Posted April 23, 2019 6 minutes ago, legend said: Anyone who is a fan willing to give me a summary of what they like that think "Mayor Pete" is going to do? I haven't watched all of his town hall segment, but I find it worrying how much he can say that "sounds" good without actually saying anything. I don't really know what he'll do. I just know he's unhappy about similar things. And it makes me uncomfortable that not saying what he'll do is in fact his stated strategy: he wants to tell people what he cares about rather than the "minutiae" of policy. If I had other reason to believe he'd be good at policy, that could be okay. But right now, I don't. I don't expect to be a great judge of specific policy quality, but I can evaluate whether it seems like a candidate is actually trying to tackle the challenges in forming it, and then I can see how others respond to their proposals and how they respond in turn. Observing that allow me to build confidence that they will at least put in a competent effort, and that's what I'm missing with him. Saying what's wrong is easy. Addressing what's wrong is hard. I want evidence that he can do that latter. These are exactly the reasons I laid out earlier in this thread about why I'm very hesitant about him. He's a shifting goal posts politician and he feels inauthentic. He's the only Democratic candidate still accepting lobbying money and his elitism is pretty plainly obvious. I'm open to learning more about him, but I'm skeptical. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SuperSpreader Posted April 23, 2019 Share Posted April 23, 2019 I heard him for the first time on CNN town hall last night, he was impressive Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Massdriver Posted April 23, 2019 Share Posted April 23, 2019 What's wrong with elites running the country? I'm all for it. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
b_m_b_m_b_m Posted April 23, 2019 Share Posted April 23, 2019 22 minutes ago, Massdriver said: What's wrong with elites running the country? I'm all for it. Found the hill we're dying on today, huh? 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jason Posted April 23, 2019 Share Posted April 23, 2019 46 minutes ago, Massdriver said: What's wrong with elites running the country? I'm all for it. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ByWatterson Posted April 23, 2019 Author Share Posted April 23, 2019 I have no problem with philosopher kings. Greek aristocracy, but not a plutocracy or oligarchy. As long as they're actually the best of us. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ByWatterson Posted April 23, 2019 Author Share Posted April 23, 2019 31 minutes ago, Jason said: I thought we were an autonomous collective?! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
b_m_b_m_b_m Posted April 23, 2019 Share Posted April 23, 2019 22 minutes ago, ByWatterson said: I have no problem with philosopher kings. Greek aristocracy, but not a plutocracy or oligarchy. As long as they're actually the best of us. Quick reminder that virtually everyone in this current administration, Trump included, and the house and the Senate, is a member of the elite by any definition you choose, even aside from their status as national level political leaders 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Commissar SFLUFAN Posted April 23, 2019 Share Posted April 23, 2019 Should I enlighten everyone as to how the rule of the "philosopher kings" in Athens ended? Hint: not well for Athens. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ByWatterson Posted April 23, 2019 Author Share Posted April 23, 2019 4 minutes ago, b_m_b_m_b_m said: Quick reminder that virtually everyone in this current administration, Trump included, and the house and the Senate, is a member of the elite by any definition you choose. Trump inherited his status, as did many of his worst players. That's not Greek aristocracy. Also, wealth != excellence. I'm simply saying that if there were a way to determine the true elites that is not about money or manipulation, I'd be for it. Buttigieg strikes me as of that class of excellence of parts - character, insight, service, honesty. I thought his answer last night on the police chief, for instance, wherein he clearly articulated why he took action, and some regrets he has, was a complete home run. In a word, I guess, I want thoughtful leaders. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ByWatterson Posted April 23, 2019 Author Share Posted April 23, 2019 Just now, SFLUFAN said: Should I enlighten everyone as to how the rule of the "philosopher kings" in Athens ended? Hint: not well for Athens. I mean, there was a plague. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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