Chairslinger Posted March 24, 2019 Share Posted March 24, 2019 Interesting analysis here. This is why it will be important to get legal analysis from experts. Matthew Miller seems to be saying that Barr put his finger on the scale in an unusual way. Apparently Mueller's determination on obstruction may have been akin to passing it off to Congress and saying, "It's up to you". What Barr did was interject and say, "Since Mueller couldn't decide, I did.". And Miller is saying that is unusual. Without knowing the DoJ protocol, it did seem strange to me that Mueller was basically passing the buck to Barr. Sounds like Mueller may have actually been almost saying that it was a political matter left up to Congress, but Barr interjected his opinion. An important point if all this is true is that Barr went out of his way to say that his determination was not influenced by the precedent to not indict a president(to head off any criticism that Trump only got off on a technicality). But he does not say that Mueller's determination was made on that basis. If Mueller was actually saying simply that the weight of the evidence for obstruction did not outweigh both the high standard and the DoJ's policy not to indict a president and thus he is passing the determination to Congress.....that is a master class in semantic manipulation by Barr. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
osxmatt Posted March 24, 2019 Share Posted March 24, 2019 I'm 14 and this is deep. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chris- Posted March 24, 2019 Share Posted March 24, 2019 And now the Kremlin releases its kompromat to finish off all trust in our democratic institutions. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Comet Posted March 24, 2019 Share Posted March 24, 2019 2 minutes ago, Chris- said: And now the Kremlin releases its kompromat to finish off all trust in our democratic institutions. Omg please Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Reputator Posted March 24, 2019 Share Posted March 24, 2019 In the eyes of the Right, this sanctifies Trump. He is a persecuted Conservative soldier and now they will see this as a time to rally behind him and support him. This may have handed Trump the 2020 election. 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chairslinger Posted March 24, 2019 Share Posted March 24, 2019 Upon further rereading, I beleive Barr is explicitly stating that Mueller determined that indicting Trump for obstruction would be out of bounds because of DoJ precedent. He appears to be saying that in place of that possible indictment Mueller decided to basically lay out a positive/negative list. Quote Obstruction of Justice. The report’s second part addresses a number of actions by the President—most of which have been the subject of public reporting—that the Special Counsel investigated as potentially raising obstruction-of-justice concerns. After making a “thorough factual investigation” into these matters, the Special Counsel considered whether to evaluate the conduct under Department standards governing prosecution and declination decisions but ultimately determined not to make a traditional prosecutorial judgment The Special Counsel therefore did not draw a conclusion—one way or the other—as to whether the examined conduct constituted obstruction. Instead, for each of the relevant actions investigated, the report sets out evidence on both sides of the question and leaves unresolved what the Special Counsel views as “difficult issues” of law and fact concerning whether the President’s actions and intent could be viewed as obstruction. The Special Counsel states that “while this report does not conclude that the President committed a crime, it also does not exonerate him.” The impression that Barr gives is that Mueller is saying, "I couldn't decide if he obstructed, so oh well". When, in fact, what Mueller may have been saying is essentially, "DoJ policy won't let me bring a conventional judgment on obstruction, so here's all the evidence and why don't you guys who are Constitutionally charged with checking the President's power decide". This strikes me as the most obvious area in which there can be so much distance between what Barr's letter says, and the report itself being very damaging(allegedly). Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SuperSpreader Posted March 24, 2019 Share Posted March 24, 2019 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jwheel86 Posted March 24, 2019 Share Posted March 24, 2019 5 minutes ago, Chairslinger said: Upon further rereading, I beleive Barr is explicitly stating that Mueller determined that indicting Trump for obstruction would be out of bounds because of DoJ precedent. He appears to be saying that in place of that possible indictment Mueller decided to basically lay out a positive/negative list. The impression that Barr gives is that Mueller is saying, "I couldn't decide if he obstructed, so oh well". When, in fact, what Mueller may have been saying is essentially, "DoJ policy won't let me bring a conventional judgment on obstruction, so here's all the evidence and why don't you guys who are Constitutionally charged with checking the President's power decide". This strikes me as the most obvious area in which there can be so much distance between what Barr's letter says, and the report itself being very damaging(allegedly). Unless Mueller himself comes out and says that, Barr gave the GOP all the cover it needs. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RedSoxFan9 Posted March 24, 2019 Share Posted March 24, 2019 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chairslinger Posted March 24, 2019 Share Posted March 24, 2019 6 minutes ago, Jwheel86 said: Unless Mueller himself comes out and says that, Barr gave the GOP all the cover it needs. Yeah, if Barr is playing some brinkmanship here it is well conceived because it strikes me as just enough shenanigans to not make a guy like Mueller put out a statement or something. He'll wait until the House calls him, I think. The important fight now is to get the report and the underlying evidence. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SuperSpreader Posted March 24, 2019 Share Posted March 24, 2019 hahaha you guys still think there's a chance Trump is the American hero, America deserves him more than anyone and best represents American values than any president before him. The last 60 years are a mistake, this is a very short lived empire. lolol 1 1 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jwheel86 Posted March 24, 2019 Share Posted March 24, 2019 8 minutes ago, Chairslinger said: The important fight now is to get the report and the underlying evidence. Sure, but it's unlikely to lead anywhere at all. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SuperSpreader Posted March 24, 2019 Share Posted March 24, 2019 You guys really bought the whole freedom and rights business. Blind justice or whatever with the scales, pfffffttttt. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
osxmatt Posted March 24, 2019 Share Posted March 24, 2019 36 minutes ago, Chairslinger said: Upon further rereading, I beleive Barr is explicitly stating that Mueller determined that indicting Trump for obstruction would be out of bounds because of DoJ precedent. He appears to be saying that in place of that possible indictment Mueller decided to basically lay out a positive/negative list. The impression that Barr gives is that Mueller is saying, "I couldn't decide if he obstructed, so oh well". When, in fact, what Mueller may have been saying is essentially, "DoJ policy won't let me bring a conventional judgment on obstruction, so here's all the evidence and why don't you guys who are Constitutionally charged with checking the President's power decide". This strikes me as the most obvious area in which there can be so much distance between what Barr's letter says, and the report itself being very damaging(allegedly). This is my take as well. Mueller is a patriot and plays by the book. He was never gonna be the person to test DOJ policy. The fact he so definitively says Trump did not collude with Russia, and then says the evidence on obstruction does not exonerate the president, reads to me like he was saying "this guy did it." Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SaysWho? Posted March 24, 2019 Share Posted March 24, 2019 I have some Trump voters on my feed really angry that news organizations are also emphasizing "stops short of exonerating President Trump" in their headlines even though it's a big deal. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CastlevaniaNut18 Posted March 24, 2019 Share Posted March 24, 2019 The Trump supporters I'm seeing are just gloating. I never really expected much from the Mueller Report. Trump is still a criminal and general piece of shit no matter what the report says. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jason Posted March 24, 2019 Share Posted March 24, 2019 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jason Posted March 24, 2019 Share Posted March 24, 2019 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jason Posted March 24, 2019 Share Posted March 24, 2019 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
osxmatt Posted March 24, 2019 Share Posted March 24, 2019 3 minutes ago, CastlevaniaNut18 said: The Trump supporters I'm seeing are just gloating. I never really expected much from the Mueller Report. Trump is still a criminal and general piece of shit no matter what the report says. It's remarkable the one person who can end Trump, is the same person that can vindicate Trump. I don't use the term often, but Republican's and Trump's attempt to have it both ways is mental gymnastics at its finest. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Massdriver Posted March 24, 2019 Share Posted March 24, 2019 I think Dems needs to focus on winning in 2020. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jwheel86 Posted March 24, 2019 Share Posted March 24, 2019 Here's the only thing of actual value Congress can ask Barr going forward: If a US Attorney's Office finds evidence of a crime and would normally indict, is there a mechanism for Congress to be notified? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jason Posted March 24, 2019 Share Posted March 24, 2019 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CastlevaniaNut18 Posted March 24, 2019 Share Posted March 24, 2019 Just now, Massdriver said: I think Dems needs to focus on winning in 2020. Yep. I want to see the country issue a strong rebuke of Trump by kicking him out of office next year. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jason Posted March 24, 2019 Share Posted March 24, 2019 Just now, CastlevaniaNut18 said: Yep. I want to see the country issue a strong rebuke of Trump by kicking him out of office next year. The system is broken if you can be such a blatant criminal, including crimes committed to win the presidency, and get to serve out your full term. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CastlevaniaNut18 Posted March 24, 2019 Share Posted March 24, 2019 Just now, Jason said: The system is broken if you can be such a blatant criminal, including crimes committed to win the presidency, and get to serve out your full term. I know, but what else are you gonna do at this point? Vote him out next year. That's all we can do. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
osxmatt Posted March 24, 2019 Share Posted March 24, 2019 9 minutes ago, Jason said: The system is broken if you can be such a blatant criminal, including crimes committed to win the presidency, and get to serve out your full term. This. Also, a win in 2020 is a very shortsighted goal. Whether Trump loses in 2020 or not, he has completely and irrevocably changed the Republican party, and the Republican electorate. Trump has become a template for future Republican nominees to fill. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jwheel86 Posted March 24, 2019 Share Posted March 24, 2019 1 minute ago, CastlevaniaNut18 said: I know, but what else are you gonna do at this point? Vote him out next year. That's all we can do. Create the Office of the Inspector General of the United States who can only be hired and fired by the Speaker of the House, President, and Chief Justice and serves a 10 year term. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chairslinger Posted March 24, 2019 Share Posted March 24, 2019 If I were Micheal Cohen I'd be pretty pissed and disgusted right now. I am aware there are plenty of reasons to dislike the man, but it's another example of the justice system being fundamentally fucked if the one guy to stand up against Trump and cooperate with the investigation is also the guy who spends the most time in jail for it(or second-most, but it's hard to see how Trump doesn't see this report as liscense to pardon Manafort). What kind of message does that send to people who might go through something like this again? Seems like it says cooperating is for suckers. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jason Posted March 24, 2019 Share Posted March 24, 2019 December 2018: Yes, Bill Barr’s Memo Really is Wrong About Obstruction of Justice Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chris- Posted March 24, 2019 Share Posted March 24, 2019 None of this precludes financial crimes though, which are likely in SDNY’s hands. KEEP STROKIN’ BOYS 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CastlevaniaNut18 Posted March 24, 2019 Share Posted March 24, 2019 15 minutes ago, Jwheel86 said: Create the Office of the Inspector General of the United States who can only be hired and fired by the Speaker of the House, President, and Chief Justice and serves a 10 year term. Sounds like a fantastic idea. Also sounds like a pipe dream at this point. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jason Posted March 24, 2019 Share Posted March 24, 2019 7 minutes ago, CastlevaniaNut18 said: Sounds like a fantastic idea. Also sounds like a pipe dream at this point. We can give the job to Eric so we can finally find out what Ben Ghazi did with the emails. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RedSoxFan9 Posted March 24, 2019 Share Posted March 24, 2019 Democrats should focus on losing in 2020 1 1 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
osxmatt Posted March 24, 2019 Share Posted March 24, 2019 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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