CayceG Posted March 13, 2019 Share Posted March 13, 2019 I've really lost faith in the airlines over this. Grounding them is the right decision. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CitizenVectron Posted March 13, 2019 Share Posted March 13, 2019 There are currently around 20 of them in the air. 1 over Ukraine, the rest over the US. So they should all be grounded in a matter of hours. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
skillzdadirecta Posted March 13, 2019 Share Posted March 13, 2019 How common are these planes? I have no idea if I've flown on one recently. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Commissar SFLUFAN Posted March 13, 2019 Share Posted March 13, 2019 Just now, skillzdadirecta said: How common are these planes? I have no idea if I've flown on one recently. There are about 670 operating worldwide currently. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SilentWorld Posted March 13, 2019 Share Posted March 13, 2019 33 minutes ago, CitizenVectron said: There are currently around 20 of them in the air. 1 over Ukraine, the rest over the US. So they should all be grounded in a matter of hours. How can you possibly KNOW that. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
osxmatt Posted March 13, 2019 Share Posted March 13, 2019 35 minutes ago, skillzdadirecta said: How common are these planes? I have no idea if I've flown on one recently. https://www.chicagotribune.com/business/ct-biz-cb-boeing-737-max-passengers-avoid-20190312-story.html Quote Boeing has two main versions of the 737 Max — the Max 8 and Max 9. According to the FAA, there are 387 Boeing 737 Max 8 and 737 Max 9 aircraft registered worldwide, and 74 registered in the U.S. Southwest Airlines has 34 of the 737 Max 8, American Airlines has 24 and United Airlines has 14 of the 737 Max 9. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chris- Posted March 13, 2019 Share Posted March 13, 2019 6 minutes ago, SilentWorld said: How can you possibly KNOW that. Knowing Citizen, there is a 95% chance he read that on ResetERA. 1 4 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CitizenVectron Posted March 13, 2019 Share Posted March 13, 2019 1 hour ago, Chris- said: Knowing Citizen, there is a 95% chance he read that on ResetERA. I am the reposter this board deserves, just not the one it needs right now. And it was reddit. 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jason Posted March 13, 2019 Share Posted March 13, 2019 Just now, CitizenVectron said: I am the reposter this board deserves, just not the one it needs right now. And it was reddit. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Spork3245 Posted March 13, 2019 Share Posted March 13, 2019 2 hours ago, Jason said: America is RESPECTED AGAIN for our bigly Leadership! Totally clears the President. Thank you! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jason Posted March 13, 2019 Share Posted March 13, 2019 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Keyser_Soze Posted March 14, 2019 Share Posted March 14, 2019 6 hours ago, SilentWorld said: How can you possibly KNOW that. You can ask siri and she will tell you. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Commissar SFLUFAN Posted March 14, 2019 Share Posted March 14, 2019 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Link200 Posted March 14, 2019 Share Posted March 14, 2019 On 3/11/2019 at 1:18 PM, SaysWho? said: Three people? Dude, that's not a commercial flight. I am not talking about all planes for any flight. Technically it is a commercial flight. You mean it isn't a passenger flight. This is true, but what happened to this 767 could happen to a passenger version as well. Time will tell as the NTSB pieces the puzzle together. Every accident needs to be taken seriously regardless if it is full of people or iPads. Sadly because the public only seems to care about passenger aircraft; cargo has been left in the dust when implementing new safety regulations. You can do a search on the Part 117 cargo cut out. Apparently cargo pilots don't get fatigued like passenger carrying pilots. Then again, I almost killed myself one night due to fatigue while flying cargo. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CitizenVectron Posted March 14, 2019 Share Posted March 14, 2019 15 minutes ago, SFLUFAN said: There are a bunch of lawyers salivating over the negligence suits about to happen. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Link200 Posted March 14, 2019 Share Posted March 14, 2019 17 minutes ago, SFLUFAN said: Currently this is being sensationalized. From what I gather they just got the black boxes for analysis. There is no way to know if the two accidents are linked until investigators actually analyze all the data. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CitizenVectron Posted March 14, 2019 Share Posted March 14, 2019 Just now, Link200 said: Currently this is being sensationalized. From what I gather they just got the black boxes for analysis. There is no way to know if the two accidents are linked until investigators actually analyze all the data. Apparently the satellite telemetry was obtained by Canada's transportation ministry and the two planes exhibited the same behaviour as they crashed. That isn't conclusive, of course. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Link200 Posted March 14, 2019 Share Posted March 14, 2019 Also let us not forget at this time that the second accident isn't 100% Boeing's fault. I know AA implemented new procedures for a trim runaway after the lion air crash. I do not know if Ethiopian actually made the changes or not. Also the government shutdown delayed the new software update from Boeing by ~5 weeks according to the WSJ. 8 minutes ago, CitizenVectron said: Apparently the satellite telemetry was obtained by Canada's transportation ministry and the two planes exhibited the same behaviour as they crashed. That isn't conclusive, of course. Yeah you can only get so much information based on satellites/radar. I personally don't like this information because it only fuels speculation. It is fine if people use the data to error on the side of safety but it isn't great for the people actually involved. Flight Data Recorders should clear this up shortly. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jason Posted March 14, 2019 Share Posted March 14, 2019 What is a trim runway? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Anathema- Posted March 14, 2019 Share Posted March 14, 2019 4 hours ago, SFLUFAN said: "For a small fee we'll install this handy BLUE button to get ya down!" Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Anathema- Posted March 14, 2019 Share Posted March 14, 2019 Just now, Anathema- said: "For a small fee we'll install this handy BLUE button to get ya down!" This is a deep cut, even for me, but I hope somebody gets it. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jason Posted March 15, 2019 Share Posted March 15, 2019 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
osxmatt Posted March 15, 2019 Share Posted March 15, 2019 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Link200 Posted March 15, 2019 Share Posted March 15, 2019 23 hours ago, Jason said: What is a trim runway? I don't know if you know what trim is so I will explain just in case. Think of a car that wants to always pull to the left. That happens with the control surfaces on all aircraft. Sometimes a plane wants to always roll right, flies crooked, or wants to pitch up or down. For a pilot this causes us to have to hold control pressure to maintain the aircraft on the desired course. This can be caused for a number of reasons. In the case of pitch trim this will constantly need adjusted during the flight as fuel burns and the center of gravity changes. Pitch trim is also needed for configuration changes such as when extending or retracting the flaps. Trim itself is basically a small change to the control surface that allows you to fix the problem for the flight. For example in the aircraft I fly if it always wants to roll left I can hit the aileron trim switch to the right. The result is an electronic motor that runs and biases the aileron cabling to the right to correct for the left roll tendency. A trim runaway is when the trim does not stop at the desired spot and continues till it reaches its limit. This can cause a dangerous situation as it is possible to trim an aircraft to a point where the flight crew may not be able to overpower the extreme trim setting. It essentially is the equivalence of forcing the yoke full ward or aft when at the limit. The jets I have flown have an aural warning to warn us of a runaway situation. Some aircraft have auto-disconnects and others require pilot action to fix. In the case of one of the aircraft I currently fly we have a button on the yoke that disconnects our pitch trim and circuit breakers that have a plastic collar so they are easy to pull in case the button does not work. We test these systems every day. 4 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Commissar SFLUFAN Posted March 18, 2019 Share Posted March 18, 2019 Seattle Times: Flawed analysis, failed oversight: How Boeing, FAA certified the suspect 737 MAX flight control system Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CitizenVectron Posted March 18, 2019 Share Posted March 18, 2019 30 minutes ago, SFLUFAN said: Seattle Times: Flawed analysis, failed oversight: How Boeing, FAA certified the suspect 737 MAX flight control system "We don't need regulation because people will simply choose to not fly on planes that are going to crash!" Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Link200 Posted March 19, 2019 Share Posted March 19, 2019 I will add one thing. The Boeing 737 Max is an interesting example of over-engineering. The 737 is a great airframe and that has resulted in it being the most popular airliner in the world. However due to the popularity customers have been wanting bigger and more efficient versions of the 737. This is because a lot of the parts they already have on hand will work with the new version and airlines will be able to phase out their older 737s at their leisure while not needing to replace or add significantly to their parts inventories. Being able to buy what is essentially the same aircraft and getting modern benefits make it a very cost effective proposition. Pilots need minimal training for the new versions. Maintenance already knows the aircraft and has a similar parts inventory. Customers know and understand the aircraft. Cost is reduced by changing a design rather than making a new design. Boeing already has 737 plants so they will require minimal change thus reducing the cost of the aircraft. I could keep going but you all get the point. Where the over-engineering comes into play is when you realize what Boeing has had to do in order to make these customer demands work. They are literally taking a 1964 design and stretching it far beyond the original design. The Max 8 and 9 for instance required a larger engine size for better fuel efficiency. The 737 design was unable to use the larger engines (plane isn't tall enough) but Boeing made it happen by moving the location of the engines. This changes the aerodynamics of the aircraft quite a bit. As a result they created the MCAS system to help compensate for the changes and make the aircraft fly "normally" when hand flying. It has been mentioned many times that had the auto-pilot been on the Lion Air crash would not have happened. When automation fails pilots tend to revert to a lessor state of automation. It is not normal nor is it in our muscle memory to engage the AP when a form of automation has malfunctioned. Honestly the 737 needs to be scrapped and Boeing needs to create a new aircraft that fits the desired mission rather than forcing an old dog to do new tricks. 4 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nokra Posted March 19, 2019 Share Posted March 19, 2019 12 hours ago, Link200 said: I will add one thing. The Boeing 737 Max is an interesting example of over-engineering. The 737 is a great airframe and that has resulted in it being the most popular airliner in the world. However due to the popularity customers have been wanting bigger and more efficient versions of the 737. This is because a lot of the parts they already have on hand will work with the new version and airlines will be able to phase out their older 737s at their leisure while not needing to replace or add significantly to their parts inventories. Being able to buy what is essentially the same aircraft and getting modern benefits make it a very cost effective proposition. Pilots need minimal training for the new versions. Maintenance already knows the aircraft and has a similar parts inventory. Customers know and understand the aircraft. Cost is reduced by changing a design rather than making a new design. Boeing already has 737 plants so they will require minimal change thus reducing the cost of the aircraft. I could keep going but you all get the point. Where the over-engineering comes into play is when you realize what Boeing has had to do in order to make these customer demands work. They are literally taking a 1964 design and stretching it far beyond the original design. The Max 8 and 9 for instance required a larger engine size for better fuel efficiency. The 737 design was unable to use the larger engines (plane isn't tall enough) but Boeing made it happen by moving the location of the engines. This changes the aerodynamics of the aircraft quite a bit. As a result they created the MCAS system to help compensate for the changes and make the aircraft fly "normally" when hand flying. It has been mentioned many times that had the auto-pilot been on the Lion Air crash would not have happened. When automation fails pilots tend to revert to a lessor state of automation. It is not normal nor is it in our muscle memory to engage the AP when a form of automation has malfunctioned. Honestly the 737 needs to be scrapped and Boeing needs to create a new aircraft that fits the desired mission rather than forcing an old dog to do new tricks. For what it's worth and as a random aside, I love your posts about your flying experiences and aircraft knowledge. It's really fascinating stuff. Thank you! 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CitizenVectron Posted March 20, 2019 Share Posted March 20, 2019 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kal-El814 Posted March 20, 2019 Share Posted March 20, 2019 SCOOP: Anyone who prefaces a tweet like that with "scoop" should be flung into shark infested waters via trebuchet. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jason Posted March 20, 2019 Share Posted March 20, 2019 13 minutes ago, Kal-El814 said: SCOOP: Anyone who prefaces a tweet like that with "scoop" should be flung into shark infested waters via trebuchet. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
osxmatt Posted March 20, 2019 Share Posted March 20, 2019 58 minutes ago, Kal-El814 said: SCOOP: Anyone who prefaces a tweet like that with "scoop" should be flung into shark infested waters via trebuchet. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jason Posted March 27, 2019 Share Posted March 27, 2019 Boeing rejects calls for broader oversight of flight safety as aviation industry converges on Renton, Wash.https://www.washingtonpost.com/business/2019/03/27/global-aviation-industry-converges-renton-wash-boeing-details-max-software-fix/ Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Joe Posted March 27, 2019 Share Posted March 27, 2019 Fly Airbus, peeps! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jason Posted March 28, 2019 Share Posted March 28, 2019 On 3/19/2019 at 7:11 PM, Kal-El814 said: SCOOP: Anyone who prefaces a tweet like that with "scoop" should be flung into shark infested waters via trebuchet. Found you a wife. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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