Books Update (08/02): three more women come forward to accuse Neil Gaiman of sexual assault (now five in total)

[Commissar SFLUFAN]

Exclusive: Neil Gaiman accused of sexual assault - Tortoise

WWW.TORTOISEMEDIA.COM

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Author denies allegations by two women who had been in consensual relationships with him.

 

Quote

 

Neil Gaiman has been accused of sexual assault by two women with whom he was in consensual relationships and is the subject of a police complaint in New Zealand. 

 

Gaiman’s position is that he strongly denies any allegations of non-consensual sex with the women and adds New Zealand police did not take up his offer of assistance over one woman’s complaint in 2022, which, he says, reflects its lack of substance.

 

However, New Zealand police said it made a “number of attempts to speak to key people as part of this investigation and those efforts remain ongoing”, adding that there are “a number of factors to take into consideration with this case, including location of all parties”. 

 

The allegations span two decades and concern young women who came into contact with Gaiman – the 63 year-old bestselling author of The Sandman, Good Omens, and American Gods – as a nanny to his child and as a fan of his writing.

 

 

[Jason]

Your "all we'll have left is Tom Hanks" prediction is looking increasingly good.

[Ghost_MH]

19 minutes ago, Jason said:

Your "all we'll have left is Tom Hanks" prediction is looking increasingly good.

 

We've also got like...Dave Grohl. There's got to be a few others left...maybe?

[Best]

Tom Hanks is a national treasure. 

[stepee]

30 minutes ago, Ghost_MH said:

 

We've also got like...Dave Grohl. There's got to be a few others left...maybe?

 

Jack Black

[Kal-El814]

Even if it’s consensual, finger banging your kid’s nanny who’s 40 years younger than you is… not good.

[Greatoneshere]

Well there's goes another person whose work I really admire. This one is more surprising than most since he didn't "seem" like the type, as it were.

[Kal-El814]

15 minutes ago, Greatoneshere said:

Well there's goes another person whose work I really admire. This one is more surprising than most since he didn't "seem" like the type, as it were.

 

There is simply no “type” when it comes to this kind of behavior.

[CitizenVectron]

5 minutes ago, Kal-El814 said:

 

There is simply no “type” when it comes to this kind of behavior.

 

 

Men.

[Greatoneshere]

10 minutes ago, Kal-El814 said:

 

There is simply no “type” when it comes to this kind of behavior.

 

I completely agree but given his passive nature, his progressive views/ideals, and his general personality it's harder to fathom him switching to such a side but of course behind closed doors you can't really guess what anyone will be like. 

[Kal-El814]

13 minutes ago, Greatoneshere said:

I completely agree but given his passive nature, his progressive views/ideals, and his general personality it's harder to fathom him switching to such a side but of course behind closed doors you can't really guess what anyone will be like. 

 

I think of myself as a progressive person, on days when I am feeling bolder I’d call myself a feminist, etc.. While I never finger blasted someone on my payroll or who was 20+ years younger than me, I can think of two times specifically where I said just… profoundly stupid things to women. They were one offs I felt badly about, not a pattern of larger behavior, and again there wasn’t an issue of power dynamics. 

 

You just never know.

[sblfilms]

16 minutes ago, Kal-El814 said:

 

I think of myself as a progressive person, on days when I am feeling bolder I’d call myself a feminist, etc.. While I never finger blasted someone on my payroll or who was 20+ years younger than me, I can think of two times specifically where I said just… profoundly stupid things to women. They were one offs I felt badly about, not a pattern of larger behavior, and again there wasn’t an issue of power dynamics. 

 

You just never know.

Any man who says they don’t have a story like this about their own behavior is a liar. Yeah, not necessarily graduating to physical abuse, but lesser harassment offenses.

 

And on the issue of “types” who do nasty stuff, I still remember vividly going to that state training to be an official chaperone for a person on the sex offender registry so they were allowed to have visitation with their kids. The trainer had a packet of information and one of the first pages was a long list of professions. 
 

Somebody asked what it was, and the instructor who was a licensed psychologist, said “These are the jobs that people I personally dealt with held after being convicted of sexual crimes against children.”

 

It was like…every job you could think of. It really hit hard how pervasive these behaviors actually are and that you can’t type cast perpetrators of even the most dastardly crimes. If it is true of the worst of the worst, sex crimes against children, it is even more so of those who commit crimes against adults.

 

The truth is that things like what Gaiman is accused of happen mostly out of opportunity. Few perps are carefully planning their rotten deed, they simply lack impulse control and take advantage of a situation in the moment. It is why you will have a lot of female friends of accused men come out and say “he never did anything like that to me.” Well, no duh. Every situation is unique!

 

Thinking about that whole bear vs random man question, at least the bear can’t pretend to be safe.

[stepee]

26 minutes ago, Kal-El814 said:

 

I think of myself as a progressive person, on days when I am feeling bolder I’d call myself a feminist, etc.. While I never finger blasted someone on my payroll or who was 20+ years younger than me, I can think of two times specifically where I said just… profoundly stupid things to women. They were one offs I felt badly about, not a pattern of larger behavior, and again there wasn’t an issue of power dynamics. 

 

You just never know.

 

Could you let me know exactly what you said, your full legal name, and place of employment?

[Bacon]

20 minutes ago, sblfilms said:

Any man who says they don’t have a story like this about their own behavior is a liar.

I don't have a story like this.

[CastlevaniaNut18]

2 hours ago, Ghost_MH said:

 

We've also got like...Dave Grohl. There's got to be a few others left...maybe?

Keanu Reeves.

[stepee]

I remember running downstairs and yelling at my gf at the time as she was driving away that she was a cunt does that count 

[sblfilms]

8 minutes ago, Bacon said:

I don't have a story like this.

I should exempted those who never leave the house and just have sex with inanimate objects, though that is implied by the point that these actions are largely based on opportunity  

[Best]

4 minutes ago, sblfilms said:

I should exempted those who never leave the house and just have sex with inanimate objects, though that is implied by the point that these actions are largely based on opportunity  

 

Damn. 

[Bacon]

11 minutes ago, sblfilms said:

I should exempted those who never leave the house and just have sex with inanimate objects, though that is implied by the point that these actions are largely based on opportunity  

HEY FUCKER

I leave the house

[TheLeon]

1 hour ago, CitizenVectron said:

 

 

Men.

And “man” is right there in his name! We should’ve known!

[Kal-El814]

2 hours ago, stepee said:

 

Could you let me know exactly what you said, your full legal name, and place of employment?

Legal name: Deez Nuts

Place of employment: Your mouth

[Slug]

It's a little depressing that we don't even wait to see how these pan out anymore.

[Kal-El814]

1 hour ago, Slug said:

It's a little depressing that we don't even wait to see how these pan out anymore.

 

The guy admitted to making out with his nanny; he looks bad in the best case scenario that it was "consensual" which is kinda dubious when she's half his age and on his payroll. It is simply extraordinarily easy to not get into a tub with, cuddle, and finger bang your care providers. 

[Greatoneshere]

This should probably be added to the Hollywood sexual predation thread. 

[GoldenTongue]

19 hours ago, Greatoneshere said:

Well there's goes another person whose work I really admire. This one is more surprising than most since he didn't "seem" like the type, as it were.

Nothing surprises me any more. The last time I felt that sense of surprise was with Joss Whedon, although for me, that almost felt like more of a sense of betrayal given how markedly pro-feminist he’d held himself to be. 
 

I struggle with some of these cases, with a sense of dissonance between what is now more universally understood to be toxic masculine behavior, in comparison to what was more widely accepted growing up, understanding that I can remember all too clearly how the scene of Han Solo grabbing Leia and kissing her clearly against her will, was cheered as a sort of romantic gesture. 
 

And it really sits poorly with me, “lamenting” the difficulty I’ve found with reconciling how many thoroughly acceptable practices from as recently as 20-25 years ago are now recognized as toxic/abusive masculinity at play, insofar as it illustrates just how pervasive the dynamic of male power/patriarchy really is. 
 

I’m reminded of the movie PROMISING YOUNG WOMAN, and of how powerfully it impacted me when discussing it with my wife after watching, and I raised the question of whether the director framed the movie in such a way as to render the protagonist as a potentially/somewhat unreliable narrator, which (I believe) was absolutely deliberate, as a vehicle for commentary of how predisposed we as a culture are toward discounting how one-sided the gender dynamic really is. 
 

But yeah, I’ve become largely desensitized to stories like these, since I accepted some time ago that, for a host of reasons, men are all too ready and willing to indulge in inappropriate behavior, because we’ve done so, largely free of consequence, for centuries now. I try to be anti-sexist (in the same way that I strive to live as an anti-racist), but in so doing, I see enough lingering vestiges of my own shortfalls that virtually nothing in this vein surprises me any longer. 
 

As for who is more/less inclined to act in such a manner - from a purely anecdotal perspective, I’ve found that those in positions of greater power/authority can tend to have a proportionally greater sense of entitlement, which makes acting on impulses like these much easier to justify or rationalize via one pretext or another. If anything, I believe that those in a position of privilege (whether legacy or earned) are more likely to indulge in such behaviors, than those who may live at a lower socio-economic level. 

[Greatoneshere]

1 hour ago, GoldenTongue said:

Nothing surprises me any more. The last time I felt that sense of surprise was with Joss Whedon, although for me, that almost felt like more of a sense of betrayal given how markedly pro-feminist he’d held himself to be. 
 

I struggle with some of these cases, with a sense of dissonance between what is now more universally understood to be toxic masculine behavior, in comparison to what was more widely accepted growing up, understanding that I can remember all too clearly how the scene of Han Solo grabbing Leia and kissing her clearly against her will, was cheered as a sort of romantic gesture. 
 

And it really sits poorly with me, “lamenting” the difficulty I’ve found with reconciling how many thoroughly acceptable practices from as recently as 20-25 years ago are now recognized as toxic/abusive masculinity at play, insofar as it illustrates just how pervasive the dynamic of male power/patriarchy really is. 
 

I’m reminded of the movie PROMISING YOUNG WOMAN, and of how powerfully it impacted me when discussing it with my wife after watching, and I raised the question of whether the director framed the movie in such a way as to render the protagonist as a potentially/somewhat unreliable narrator, which (I believe) was absolutely deliberate, as a vehicle for commentary of how predisposed we as a culture are toward discounting how one-sided the gender dynamic really is. 
 

But yeah, I’ve become largely desensitized to stories like these, since I accepted some time ago that, for a host of reasons, men are all too ready and willing to indulge in inappropriate behavior, because we’ve done so, largely free of consequence, for centuries now. I try to be anti-sexist (in the same way that I strive to live as an anti-racist), but in so doing, I see enough lingering vestiges of my own shortfalls that virtually nothing in this vein surprises me any longer. 
 

As for who is more/less inclined to act in such a manner - from a purely anecdotal perspective, I’ve found that those in positions of greater power/authority can tend to have a proportionally greater sense of entitlement, which makes acting on impulses like these much easier to justify or rationalize via one pretext or another. If anything, I believe that those in a position of privilege (whether legacy or earned) are more likely to indulge in such behaviors, than those who may live at a lower socio-economic level. 

 

I agree with everything you've said. Joss Whedon was a big surprise for me, so I suppose Neil Gaiman doing it should be no surprise, but I was still a little surprised, I have to say. And Promising Young Woman was an excellent film that draws out all the contradictions and hypocrisies that come with courting a woman and sex. Men have been taught all the wrong things, which they then perpetuate, sometimes knowingly, sometimes unknowingly. Until recently, society at large doesn't really prepare men at all for interpersonal sexual dynamics. A lot should be common sense but power and desire are seductive to anyone, men perhaps most of all. 

[Commissar SFLUFAN]

Gaiman claims that the allegations are the result of "false memories."

 

"False memories" are very much part of Scientology's teachings about "incidents", with false memories being classified as a special type of incident known as an "implant."

 

David Gaiman, Neil Gaiman's father, was the head of the UK branch of the Church of Scientology.

[stepee]

Maybe I’m too cynical but when guys like this and especialllllly Whedon are found out I’m actually way less surprised

[Kal-El814]

1 hour ago, Commissar SFLUFAN said:

Gaiman claims that the allegations are the result of "false memories."

 

"False memories" are very much part of Scientology's teachings about "incidents", with false memories being classified as a special type of incident known as an "implant."

 

David Gaiman, Neil Gaiman's father, was the head of the UK branch of the Church of Scientology.

 

My best friend is a professor and has done research in false memory, memory confabulation, source monitoring, etc. I’ll have to pass this onto him for his take.

[Kal-El814]

12 minutes ago, Kal-El814 said:

 

My best friend is a professor and has done research in false memory, memory confabulation, source monitoring, etc. I’ll have to pass this onto him for his take.

 

“Given the ages of the women involved and the recency of one of the alleged events? Slim lol”

[Commissar SFLUFAN]

In full disclosure, one of the journalists involved in the investigation is Rachel Johnson (the younger sister of former UK PM Boris Johnson) and has been involved in defending JK Rowling and her ilk in the UK's ongoing culture war over issues involving sexual identity in which Gaiman has advocated for trans rights.

[CayceG]

1 hour ago, Commissar SFLUFAN said:

In full disclosure, one of the journalists involved in the investigation is Rachel Johnson (the younger sister of former UK PM Boris Johnson) and has been involved in defending JK Rowling and her ilk in the UK's ongoing culture war over issues involving sexual identity in which Gaiman has advocated for trans rights.

 

AND all of this has come out through (as the subject of) her podcast. It's hard not to read this as a salacious advertisement. 

 

 

And the false memories thing isn't exclusive to Scientology. It's part of the satanic panic and accusations of ritualistic child abuse. 

 

Is Gaiman himself supposedly a scientologist?

[Kal-El814]

Well let’s be clear… false memories and memory manipulation are absolutely real. There’s a ton of research done on this, they can be created in lab and study settings, etc. And under the correct conditions this is actually somewhat easy to do.

 

That said they are little to nothing like the popular perception that likely comes up when someone hears the term “false memories.” I have absolutely no idea what the Scientology take on that term means. Nor do I have any idea as to what context Gaiman meant when he used the term, his understanding of them, blah blah blah.

 

But in general the popular understanding of how memory works is very bad and this is generally worse when it comes to thinks like false memories, flashbulb memories, etc.

[Kal-El814]

On 7/4/2024 at 1:33 PM, Greatoneshere said:

 

I agree with everything you've said. Joss Whedon was a big surprise for me, so I suppose Neil Gaiman doing it should be no surprise, but I was still a little surprised, I have to say. And Promising Young Woman was an excellent film that draws out all the contradictions and hypocrisies that come with courting a woman and sex. Men have been taught all the wrong things, which they then perpetuate, sometimes knowingly, sometimes unknowingly. Until recently, society at large doesn't really prepare men at all for interpersonal sexual dynamics. A lot should be common sense but power and desire are seductive to anyone, men perhaps most of all. 

 

Not that you don't know this, but "common sense" as a phrase really needs to go in almost every place it's typically used. To @GoldenTongue's point...it would be "common sense" for a guy around my age (mid 40's) to get the impression from movies, TV, games, comics, books, etc., that:

 

1) women objecting to my romantic advances need to be won over

2) consent is implied
3) "surprise kissing" is not only welcome but romantic

4) friendship with attractive women is impossible for straight men, actually

5) women lie about things that happen to them and about their interests

 

And so on and so on.

 

Or more specifically with movies that I grew up with and still love (well 3/4 anyway)...

 

1) Convincing your mother she's about to be sexually assaulted or raped is the best and only idea contemplated to get her interested in your father

2) Fucking your colleague's daughter when you're a college professor is very cool (remember that according to George Lucas, Indy and Marion's affair happened when Marion was TWELVE)

3) Fucking a woman when she thinks she's having sex with her boyfriend is cool if you're a nerd, he's a jock, and she gets off

4) Gaslighting your girlfriend into thinking you're a swashbuckling pirate and not dead so that you can find out if she fell in love with another man AFTER SHE THOUGHT YOU WERE DEAD is a thing cool guys do

 

But a lot of this stuff is very obviously NOT "common sense" if you're friends with women that trust you, will talk to you, and if you listen.

 

So I do have sympathy for men of a certain age whose social barometer hasn't been recalibrated to the zeitgeist, but only so much since it's on everyone to keep learning, adapting, and accepting new information. Willful ignorance just isn't a good enough excuse and we don't generally accept it as one for just about every other topic. I wouldn't expect someone my dad's age to think it's okay to refer to black people as negroes even though it was what he grew up with for part of his youth, or as colored people despite it being in use for longer, etc. Not fucking unreasonable for dudes to be on the hook for behaving responsibly when it comes to half the people walking the earth.

[Moa]

Yeah, Sixteen Candles was a fucked up movie.