Television Star Wars: The Acolyte (Disney+), update (08/19): RIP in Peace

[GeneticBlueprint]

13 hours ago, Commissar SFLUFAN said:

OH GOD - THIS EPISODE IS BEGINNING WITH A FLASHBACK!

 

*draws breath*

 

Spoiler

AAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAARRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHH

 

This show is so horrifically mid that it's actually very bad.

[Spawn_of_Apathy]

What seems so sloppy is we have only 1 episode left and arguably no villain. Even Qimir it looked like they spent episode 6 making him out to be a victim who just wants to explore the force in ways the Jedi deem forbidden. 

 

it kind of feels like the show runners, writers, director, etc lost the plot on that Jedi vs Sith is clear cut story of good vs evil. Not everyone existing in some gray area in the middle. 

[johnny]

i get the frustration with two flashback episodes when you only have 8 total, but i do think this was the better flashback lol. i get wanting to show both sides of the flashback but i don’t think it was the best use of time. 

 

it’s definitely possible this show is supposed to be more than 1 season. 

 

also, disney has A LOT of shows where people say “man idk how they wrap this up with only x episodes left”. two flashback episodes is more forgivable if you have more episodes. 

[johnny]

1 hour ago, Spawn_of_Apathy said:

What seems so sloppy is we have only 1 episode left and arguably no villain. Even Qimir it looked like they spent episode 6 making him out to be a victim who just wants to explore the force in ways the Jedi deem forbidden. 

 

it kind of feels like the show runners, writers, director, etc lost the plot on that Jedi vs Sith is clear cut story of good vs evil. Not everyone existing in some gray area in the middle. 

well i think that’s intentional, and Qimir is definitely a villain. regardless of his past he is playing up the victim stuff to manipulate osha. and not every villain has to just be pure evil. Qimir could have had legitimate reasons why he is the way he is but he’s still a bad guy. We saw this episode exactly why Mae wants to kill the Jedi seeing Sol stab her mother and her entire coven killed. 

 

this series is definitely an indictment on the jedi and how they are flawed which i enjoy seeing. The shit that Sol is doing might have a large effect on the jedi going forward if they’re not able to keep it under wraps. 

[Spork3245]

Every time Mae said “mama says” all I could think about was Water Boy.

[Best]

10 minutes ago, Spork3245 said:

Every time Mae said “mama says” all I could think about was Happy Gilmore.

 

Don't you mean water boy?

[Spork3245]

3 minutes ago, Best said:

 

Don't you mean water boy?

F. Yep.  

[Spawn_of_Apathy]

5 hours ago, johnny said:

well i think that’s intentional, and Qimir is definitely a villain. regardless of his past he is playing up the victim stuff to manipulate osha. and not every villain has to just be pure evil. Qimir could have had legitimate reasons why he is the way he is but he’s still a bad guy. We saw this episode exactly why Mae wants to kill the Jedi seeing Sol stab her mother and her entire coven killed. 

 

this series is definitely an indictment on the jedi and how they are flawed which i enjoy seeing. The shit that Sol is doing might have a large effect on the jedi going forward if they’re not able to keep it under wraps. 

misunderstanding is the true enemy in the show. lol Just people without all the information making assumptions and attacking people over those assumptions. …

 

 

holy shit, this show is a metaphor and allegory for the Star Wars fanbase. *chef’s kiss* well played Disney. 

 

 

[legend]

Well, that was a whole lot of dumb people doing dumb things for reasons that don't make a lot of sense. Doesn't exactly endear me to any of the characters.

[Massdriver]

This was better than Ashoka. 

[Commissar SFLUFAN]

28 minutes ago, legend said:

Well, that was a whole lot of dumb people doing dumb things for reasons that don't make a lot of sense. Doesn't exactly endear me to any of the characters.

 

Idiot plot - Wikipedia

EN.M.WIKIPEDIA.ORG

[legend]

8 hours ago, Commissar SFLUFAN said:

 

Idiot plot - Wikipedia

EN.M.WIKIPEDIA.ORG

 

I didn't realize this trope was formalized with such a wonderfully blunt name!

[AbsolutSurgen]

Wow.  That was probably the single worst episode of any Star Wars TV show to date (and I am including the Christmas special, and the two Endor TV specials).

 

That episode makes everything look like a big misunderstanding?  Kind of like an 80s sitcom, but without the comedy part.  It makes the foreshadowing in the early episodes feel really out of place.

 

And, did they use completely different fight choreographers from episode 5?

 

Characters acting like they had no internal motivation.  Changing their opinions on a dime.  Some of the worst dialogue I've heard.  Lee Jung-Jae and Carrie-Anne Moss had a back-and-forth that would seem awkward in a middle-school production.

 

I don't see how they pull this together into a coherent plot with one episode left.

[Massdriver]

I haven't seen the latest episode. I thought ep 6 was the finale. 

[Spork3245]

1 minute ago, Massdriver said:

I haven't seen the latest episode. I thought ep 6 was the finale. 

 

8 eps total iirc

 

[AbsolutSurgen]

7 episodes in, and I still don't know what story they were trying to tell.

 

Based on the title, "The Acolyte", I have to assume this was intended on being an origin story.  Of who though?  Mae, Osha -- or some weird thing where the Force combines them back together into the 1 being they were always meant to be?

 

Is the villain reveal going to come in the last episode, potentially Venstra Rwoh, as the puppet master?  Or, were her explanations/guidance to Sol just as stupid as they sounded?

 

Disney couldn't have green lit a TV series with no story to tell.  Could they?

[legend]

46 minutes ago, AbsolutSurgen said:

Disney couldn't have green lit a TV series with no story to tell.  Could they?

 

I'm going to guess that the entire pitch was based on vibes. "Old school Jedi at the height of their power! A battle between twins on opposing sides of the force! Jedi doing martial arts! A big light saber battle!"

 

I mean, SW is mostly vibes, so that's not totally crazy, but you can't completely abandon basic plot mechanics and character motivation.

[AbsolutSurgen]

I hear your point.

But, I think the Dave Filoni stuff is a lot more than just vibes.  I'll go as far to say that the Rebels and Bad Batch animation series were REALLY good.  Yes, Ashoka was a little bit of a let-down (it really was the final season of Rebels), but still decent.

[AbsolutSurgen]

THE ACOLYTE's Leslye Headland on Episode 7, Witches, Vergences, Qui-Gon, and Anakin - Nerdist

NERDIST.COM

---

We dove into The Acolyte episode 7, witches, Anakin, Force powers, and what we'll learn in the season finale with showrunner Leslye Headland.

Reading Leslye Headland's breakdown of this episode is disheartening on all levels.  I really hope they never let her near another franchise I care about.

[Commissar SFLUFAN]

I'm really quite fine with the inciting incident(s) for the events of this story arc essentially being a cascading series of misunderstandings that lead to tragedy.  In fact, that's a very compelling foundation upon which to illustrate both the hubris of the Jedi during the High Republic era as well as what appears to be the morally ambiguous (putting it lightly) philosophy/practices of the coven.

 

But again, even with this pretty solid foundation, the problem of this series comes down to execution, execution, execution.

[Spawn_of_Apathy]

49 minutes ago, legend said:

 

I'm going to guess that the entire pitch was based on vibes. "Old school Jedi at the height of their power! A battle between twins on opposing sides of the force! Jedi doing martial arts! A big light saber battle!"

 

I mean, SW is mostly vibes, so that's not totally crazy, but you can't completely abandon basic plot mechanics and character motivation.

I felt like Mae’s sudden motivation shift in episode 4 was very much the show runners wanting this badass fight between Qimir and the Jedi and needed to contrive a reason for him to show up and going to stabby town before the “reveal” of who he was. 
 

though I do want to be sure of the timeline here. Mae arrives with Qimir. They want together until Mae snares him in a trap and leaves him to turn herself over to the Wookie Jedi. Qimir gets free. Rushes to the wookie, kills him. Leaves so Mae can find the dead body. Then Qimir shows back up so he can fight his way through the Jedi to kill Mae. Then despite being thwarted from stabbing Mae by Jedi, when he finally gets Mae and call kill her with ease he doesn’t. 
 

Sol and Mae leave for the ship. then Qimir grabs Osha and travels to another planet where Osha has a nice nap and wakes up, all before Sol and Mae manage to even leave the planet. 
 

I am also still not sure why the murder of her mother and the rest of the coven isn’t enough for Mae to still want revenge on the Jedi that were there. Especially Sol. If there is one plot contrivance that bothers me more than any other in this show, it was this turn by Mae to want to give up on revenge and turn herself over to the Jedi. 

[Kal-El814]

32 minutes ago, AbsolutSurgen said:

THE ACOLYTE's Leslye Headland on Episode 7, Witches, Vergences, Qui-Gon, and Anakin - Nerdist

NERDIST.COM

---

We dove into The Acolyte episode 7, witches, Anakin, Force powers, and what we'll learn in the season finale with showrunner Leslye Headland.

Reading Leslye Headland's breakdown of this episode is disheartening on all levels.  I really hope they never let her near another franchise I care about.

 

Why? I get the opposite impression; it seems like she has a really good grasp on the universe, vibes, and lore, but the execution leaves something to be desired.

[TwinIon]

I have a lot of issues with episode 7, but near the top is that we ended last episode with Sol telling Osha that he's been thinking about what to say for 16 years, but we don't hear him say anything! We don't even get a Rashomon from Sol's perspective, we get a full on omnipotent flashback, complete with scenes from inside Torbin's head and Mae's perspective. Was Sol describing what happened with Mae and the lamp to Mae? When we cut back to the present, are we to assume that Sol and Mae talked about the night sisters deliberating about what to do with the twins, even though neither one was present?

 

I feel like this could have been such an emotionally charged episode if we were getting some cutting to dialog in the present between Mae and Sol reconciling their versions of events. Sol is confronting the child he couldn't save! It's so easy to imagine the cross fade between his anguish at having to choose one child to save and his tearful confession/apology to Mae. We might still get some of that, but it really should have been interwoven with the retelling of these events to the audience, especially since we already got a full episode covering this same time period.

 

It's probably a nitpick, but I'm also annoyed at the lamp. How Mae dropping one lamp goes from small fire to entire facility burning and blowing up felt like something they should have addressed if they were going full on omnipotent flashback.

[Spawn_of_Apathy]

14 minutes ago, Commissar SFLUFAN said:

I'm really quite fine with the inciting incident(s) for the events of this story arc essentially being a cascading series of misunderstandings that lead to tragedy.  In fact, that's a very compelling foundation upon which to illustrate both the hubris of the Jedi during the High Republic era as well as what appears to be the morally ambiguous (putting it lightly) philosophy/practices of the coven.

 

But again, even with this pretty solid foundation, the problem of this series comes down to execution, execution, execution.

yeah my issue in regards to that is mainly around Sol and how he acted like a fanatic with the same energy as a drug addict. As if recruiting the children would get him high. He saw no reason to believe the coven would or have been harming the children.

 

maybe if we/he saw the women inflicting actual pain on the girls so as to get them to draw upon the dark side. Then his fervor to need to remove the girls would be justified. And I don’t mean a little force shove to the ground. I mean like the girls being actually tortured. But maybe because it is what they know and they’re being told it is for the good of the coven and to ensure they can protect the coven. Then we have a solid reason for the level to which Sol is. But instead he’s like a zealous dog chasing a bone because he saw the girls get scolded a bit or just because they are there at all. 

[AbsolutSurgen]

11 minutes ago, Kal-El814 said:

 

Why? I get the opposite impression; it seems like she has a really good grasp on the universe, vibes, and lore, but the execution leaves something to be desired.

1)  Because it gives me little confidence the series will wrap up anything.

2)  Because what she thinks she is communicating in the series bears little resemblance to what I am seeing on the screen

3)  What she describes as wanting to deliver (i.e. something exploring morality) is something even the best directors often struggle with, and is probably best suited to something other than Star Wars (as Harrison Ford put it, "Hey kid, it ain't that kind of movie")

4)  I don't think she has a good grasp on the Star Wars universe, the vibes nor the lore.  But, has a superficial perspective on many of them.

The vibes of "Andor" or "Rebels" are night and day different from this.

[Commissar SFLUFAN]

8 minutes ago, Spawn_of_Apathy said:

yeah my issue in regards to that is mainly around Sol and how he acted like a fanatic with the same energy as a drug addict. As if recruiting the children would get him high. He saw no reason to believe the coven would or have been harming the children.

 

maybe if we/he saw the women inflicting actual pain on the girls so as to get them to draw upon the dark side. Then his fervor to need to remove the girls would be justified. And I don’t mean a little force shove to the ground. I mean like the girls being actually tortured. But maybe because it is what they know and they’re being told it is for the good of the coven and to ensure they can protect the coven. Then we have a solid reason for the level to which Sol is. But instead he’s like a zealous dog chasing a bone because he saw the girls get scolded a bit or just because they are there at all. 

 

Sol's actions regarding the twins are reflective of his own personal feelings of inadequacy that he's not a "real" Jedi because he doesn't have a Padawan.  Indara's off-handed quip about him not having a Padawan probably/definitely cut him hard to his core which then cascaded into his practically obsessive behavior to "rescue" the twins from the coven even though there really was little to no evidence that such a rescue was necessary and the resulting fatal misunderstandings.

 

Again, this is actually really quite compelling narrative material that was severely let down by its execution.

[Commissar SFLUFAN]

12 minutes ago, AbsolutSurgen said:

3)  What she describes as wanting to deliver (i.e. something exploring morality) is something even the best directors often struggle with, and is probably best suited to something other than Star Wars (as Harrison Ford put it, "Hey kid, it ain't that kind of movie")

 

If the Star Wars series hasn't already been exploring various aspects of "morality" to greater or lesser degrees for nearly 50 years, then I have absolutely no bloody idea what the hell I've been watching.

ALL fiction involves the exploration of moral themes in one way or another.

[AbsolutSurgen]

8 minutes ago, Commissar SFLUFAN said:

 

If the Star Wars series hasn't already been exploring various aspects of "morality" for nearly 50 years, then I have absolutely no bloody idea what the hell I've been watching.

It's almost always this character is "Good", this character is "Bad" -- with the occasional somewhat unconvincing flip (i.e. Vader in ROTJ, Anakin in ROTS, Kylo Ren in TROS, Agent Kallus in Rebels).  I don't particularly recall any deep insightful investigation of morality.  What are you thinking of?

[skillzdadirecta]

You guys are over thinking this. Osha is going to be the Acolyte and she and Mae are basically going to swap... She's being seduced by the dark side and Mae is slowly starting to come to the light. The show seems to be exploring the grey area between the Jedi and The Sith (something I thought the sequel trilogy was going to do through Rey and Kylo Ren but I guess they changed their minds.) This show is no where NEAR as bad as you guys are making it out to be but granted, I waited until this week to binge the series all at once. I can imagine the pacing being a problem if you were watching this week to week... I think this show has the same problem most of of Disney's other Star Wars and Marvel shows have... they basically shoot these as movies and then chop them up and that's why the pacing lags. They should either A, stop doing that or B, release them all at once. These shows in particular suffer from being released week to week and I imagine if they all came out at once, they'd be better received.

 

And yes, Star Wars has always explored morality through the Jedi and Sith... The Jedi value order and selflessness but deny basic individual needs and attachments (like Monks) and The Sith use their passions to fuel their power and are incredibly individualistic (is that a word?)  The Sith in this, not sure his name, is seducing Osha to the Dark Side or at least trying to because Mae failed. Anyway, this show isn't incredibly deep and it isn't trying to be. It's fun, has some cool fight scenes (some of the best saber battles in the franchise in my opinion) and I hope it gets more season. The Showrunner said she has a three season arc planned. Hopefully the haters don't derail that. The Whip saber was goofy though... reminded me of Spaceballs 

 

[Commissar SFLUFAN]

56 minutes ago, AbsolutSurgen said:

It's almost always this character is "Good", this character is "Bad" -- with the occasional somewhat unconvincing flip (i.e. Vader in ROTJ, Anakin in ROTS, Kylo Ren in TROS, Agent Kallus in Rebels).  I don't particularly recall any deep insightful investigation of morality.  What are you thinking of?

 

The explorations of morality may not necessarily have been particularly deep or complex, but they have been present and I'd much rather see them take the risks of exploring more complex moral interactions -- where in some instances they have actually had genuine success (Rogue One, Andor) -- than not do so at all.

[legend]

1 hour ago, Commissar SFLUFAN said:

I'm really quite fine with the inciting incident(s) for the events of this story arc essentially being a cascading series of misunderstandings that lead to tragedy.  In fact, that's a very compelling foundation upon which to illustrate both the hubris of the Jedi during the High Republic era as well as what appears to be the morally ambiguous (putting it lightly) philosophy/practices of the coven.

 

But again, even with this pretty solid foundation, the problem of this series comes down to execution, execution, execution.

 

I think misunderstandings can work as a tragedy when it's entirely understandable how the misunderstanding came to be and each person seemed reasonable within the context or was acting under an understandable emotional state for the context. No one is seeming reasonable in this and their motives seem to flip without clarity about how they got there.

 

Although if you are putting those things under the "execution" label, then I can agree with that.

[Commissar SFLUFAN]

4 minutes ago, legend said:

 

I think misunderstandings can work as a tragedy when it's entirely understandable how the misunderstanding came to be and each person seemed reasonable within the context. No one is seeming reasonable in this and their motives seem to flip without clarity about how they got there.

 

Although if you are putting those things under the "execution" label, then I can agree with that.

Those things are absolutely included in what I categorize as narrative execution.

[Spawn_of_Apathy]

19 minutes ago, Commissar SFLUFAN said:

 

Sol's actions regarding the twins are reflective of his own personal feelings of inadequacy that he's not a "real" Jedi because he doesn't have a Padawan.  Indara's off-handed quip about him not having a Padawan probably/definitely cut him hard to his core which then cascaded into his practically obsessive behavior to "rescue" the twins from the coven even though there really was little to no evidence that such a rescue was necessary and the resulting fatal misunderstandings.

 

Again, this is actually really quite compelling narrative material that was severely let down by its execution.

i forgot that Yord had a Padawan as a Knight. In the clone wars movie it was treated as a special case to give Anakin a Padawan even though he wasn’t a Master. Maybe the High Republic era was different. 
 

I found Sol’s behavior more off putting and creepy to feel it was compelling. He’s not meant to be Golem from lord of rings. But ok, I can chalk this up to differing opinions and likes and dislikes. 
 

The way they have been writing this I do wonder if Indara choosing to cover this up was also more out of self preservation. She completely lost control over the mission, where she was the only Master and so clearly in charge. 
 

but then it also calls the decision by the high council to allow Sol to train Osha after they already said no. So her sister kills everyone by burning the place down because of the Jedi trying to split them up and council was like “yeah I see no way this trauma wouldn’t affect her training and development at all.” 

[Commissar SFLUFAN]

5 minutes ago, Spawn_of_Apathy said:

I found Sol’s behavior more off putting and creepy to feel it was compelling. He’s not meant to be Golem from lord of rings. 

 

You're absolutely correct - the on-screen depiction of Sol's behavior towards the twins was "odd" at the very least and definitely creepy at the worst.

 

Perhaps that was the intention, but if so, then its execution and/or the directions given to the actor left much to be desired as nothing was presented to convey his feelings of inadequacy and all we saw was his behavior.

[Spawn_of_Apathy]

2 hours ago, AbsolutSurgen said:

THE ACOLYTE's Leslye Headland on Episode 7, Witches, Vergences, Qui-Gon, and Anakin - Nerdist

NERDIST.COM

---

We dove into The Acolyte episode 7, witches, Anakin, Force powers, and what we'll learn in the season finale with showrunner Leslye Headland.

Reading Leslye Headland's breakdown of this episode is disheartening on all levels.  I really hope they never let her near another franchise I care about.

something I remind myself of and others is that at this point and for a while now all Star Wars has been fan made. Professional fan fiction, if you will. 
 

as much as many people like to point to legends as “canon” there was always been a massive asterisk for any SW piece of media that wasn’t a George Lucas made movie. He never considered them part of his canon unless he pulled it into canon. And it’s not like his canon was always universally loved or acknowledged. The People vs George Lucas had some of the same people criticizing him there who are acting like Disney is destroying his legacy. Even George contradicted himself or changed the lore in ways that had people angry. 
 

there are so many interpretations for all things Star Wars, the Jedi and the Force. So I *try* not to get too hung up on lore. I don’t always succeed. Though I tend to get more annoyed when writers put themselves in a situation where they have to bend over backwards and jump through hoops to not step on established canon. Most of the time it is their own fault for being there, and they just made a worse story because of it.