Television Star Wars: The Acolyte (Disney+), update (08/19): RIP in Peace

[johnny]

the biggest mistake they made this season was forgetting about tasi lowa!! 

[GeneticBlueprint]

23 hours ago, Greatoneshere said:

5. Random Darth Plageus shot and random back of Yoda's head shot were so fan service-y as to be almost jarring. The Yoda one is acceptable but randomly showing someone we've never seen in live-action before with no context is such blatant easter egg'ing that it goes from a cool insert to somewhat derailing things.

 

Comment I saw somewhere and made me lol "Have you heard the tragedy of Darth Plagueis The Wise?" He was in the Acolyte... That's the tragedy

[skillzdadirecta]

So Qimir is supposed to be Darth Plagueis? I didnt think Plagueis was human 

 

EDIT: Nevermind, missed his cameo the first time I watched. I fgured Qimir HAD to have a master.

[Spork3245]

So, Qmir will eventually use the force to become less Asian and turn into Palpatine since Disney is obsessed with connecting everything to the original trilogy and/or prequels rather than having standalone things. You heard it here first!

[SoberChef]

So a random thought I had in my head after hearing about all the things that transpired in this shit show. Since the Sith were always about "The Rule of Two" since Darth Bane, YET we do know that Palpatine had multiple apprentices. Who's to say that the breaking of this Rule of Two wasn't ALSO done by Plagueis? PERHAPS, they're working towards leaning into that as a way to explain Darth Smiley et al? Then again, that thought alone goes against anything this show had to offer in terms of logic, so yeah I figured I was just reaching too damn far. 

 

Now, gimme S2 of Andor and then I'll mourn a franchise I HAD loved since my childhood. 

[Spork3245]

39 minutes ago, SoberChef said:

So a random thought I had in my head after hearing about all the things that transpired in this shit show. Since the Sith were always about "The Rule of Two" since Darth Bane, YET we do know that Palpatine had multiple apprentices. Who's to say that the breaking of this Rule of Two wasn't ALSO done by Plagueis? PERHAPS, they're working towards leaning into that as a way to explain Darth Smiley et al? Then again, that thought alone goes against anything this show had to offer in terms of logic, so yeah I figured I was just reaching too damn far. 

 

Now, gimme S2 of Andor and then I'll mourn a franchise I HAD loved since my childhood. 

I mean, apprentices die and whatnot. There’s no canonical or logical reason that I’m aware of as to why Qmir couldn’t have simply been an apprentice who died prior to Plagueis recruiting Palpatine… Unless I’m missing something?

[johnny]

palpatine i believe hasn’t even been born yet 

[skillzdadirecta]

Didn't Palp say that Plaguies used the force to extend his life? Also we don't know for sure that The Twins mother was actually the one that created them. That could have been Plaguies too.

[Spork3245]

1 hour ago, johnny said:

palpatine i believe hasn’t even been born yet 

I bet Plagueis uses the force so Palpatine is born from Qmir in a scene reminiscent of the movie Alien

[AbsolutSurgen]

So, finally watched the final episode last night.  I agree with the majority opinion, that it was not a good episode.  I don't think it improved/clarified the problems from earlier in the season.

 

So, what story were they trying to tell?  After the first season, the answer has to be the story of 'Osha becoming the Acolyte".  Ignoring the plot details for a moment, I don't think it was a decent story.  For most of the season, Osha felt like an NPC with limited agency.  She never felt like the protagonist.  I never felt any particularly empathy (or even emmity) towards her.  She was just there - mostly in the background.  IMHO, not a great way to deal with your titular character.

 

Lots of problems with the show on a narrative level.  There were so many times in every episode, that the character's motivations (that often turned on a dime) made no sense.  I think there are enough posts in this thread about how bad the narrative structure was in this show, that I won't bother to elaborate.

 

In the end, I think my son said it best.  "This was a show written by someone who hates Star Wars."  They clearly hate Jedi and what they stand for.

I think the writers believe they showed the Jedi deserved to die for what happened on Brendok.

For me, as a fewer, it came across as a series of misunderstandings that were mostly caused by the witches acting as if they were the problem.

 

As the Jedi show up at the mine, Aniseya, the leader of the witch cult, possesses the mind of Torbin and does her best imitation of an evil temptress.

Then, as Sol and Aniseya are talking, seemingly out of nowhere, Aniseya decides to turn into a smoke monster and looks to be "attacking/dissolving Mae in smoke".

I'm pretty sure if that happened to me, and I had a light sabre, I would have reacted the same way Sol did.

After this, the whole fucking coven possesses Kelnacca and he attacks Sol/Torbin.

Somehow Indarra freeing Kelnacca from the possession kills the witches (or knocks them unconscious for them to die in the fire -- even the show runner says they didn't know).

 

So, if anything the Jedi look like slightly sympathetic.  To me, Sol ends up being a slightly tragic character.  And Osha killing him feels like something not earned by the writers.  [Nor is the memory wipe of Mae earned.]

 

Could this story have made sense with significantly better writing, where the story beats are earned?  I doubt it, but it is possible,

In the end, I hope they cut bait on this timeline, characters and those involved in this show and get back to making productions like Andor and their animation.

[Spork3245]

1 hour ago, AbsolutSurgen said:

So, what story were they trying to tell?

 

Something about Jedi can be bad and Sith can be cool

[AbsolutSurgen]

8 minutes ago, Spork3245 said:

 

Something about Jedi can be bad and Sith can be cool

That could be a theme, and the second part doesn't make sense in the context of the Star Wars universe.  That's not a story though.

[Spork3245]

10 minutes ago, AbsolutSurgen said:

That's not a story though.

 

It is if you use the force

[legend]

1 hour ago, Spork3245 said:

 

Something about Jedi can be bad and Sith can be cool

 

I learned from the twitter-verse that as long you're hot, you're not "evil," you're "morally grey."

[TwinIon]

20 hours ago, GeneticBlueprint said:

The answer to Why did you kill my mom Sol? was some nonsense about "Because I was trying to give you what you wanted" when he already had a real, actual, legitimate answer that he didn't give: "She put my friend in a coma with just her mind and then turned into a dark scary energy and I was defending myself. Maybe I shouldn't have been there and avoided the situation entirely but it is what it is and I'm sorry."

This brings me back to my criticism of the of structure of the final episodes. Episode 6 ends with Mae tied down and Sol ready to spill everything that happened. Episode 7 shows us everything that happened, including stuff that neither Sol nor Mae were privy to. Episode 8 picks back up with Sol and Mae, but we don't know what that conversation was like. We know for sure that they had started traveling in episode 6 when they started talking and seemed to be still talking when they arrive at the beginning of episode 8. Travel time in Star Wars is always inconsistent, so who knows if it's been minutes or days, but some time has passed and presumably they had most of that conversation. Or are we to think that zero time passed and that we picked right back up? Honestly, both are poor storytelling choices.

 

If episode 7 had been structured as Sol telling Mae his version of events, Mae would have already known that Sol killed her mom and why. You can even still have a big emotional moment with Osha, because she still didn't know. Honestly, I kinda thought Sol had told Mae, but it was impossible to know what of that flashback episode he actually told her, if anything at all.

[AbsolutSurgen]

Didn't Mae see Sol kill Mother Aniseya?

She would have seen Mother Koril draw her weapon first on the Jedi, and then Mother Aniseya turning into the Smoke monster before Sol drew his light sabre.

[Spawn_of_Apathy]

1 hour ago, AbsolutSurgen said:

Didn't Mae see Sol kill Mother Aniseya?

She would have seen Mother Koril draw her weapon first on the Jedi, and then Mother Aniseya turning into the Smoke monster before Sol drew his light sabre.

Yeah but from her point of view they were defending their home. We don’t even know what Aniseya was trying to do, but seeing as she had been trying to deescalate and not start a fight I suspect her turning to smoke was to try and stop hostilities between the two groups. 

[AbsolutSurgen]

21 minutes ago, Spawn_of_Apathy said:

Yeah but from her point of view they were defending their home. We don’t even know what Aniseya was trying to do, but seeing as she had been trying to deescalate and not start a fight I suspect her turning to smoke was to try and stop hostilities between the two groups. 

They weren't defending their home.  They were preventing Osha from leaving.

Mae had just bashed in the lock and said "nobody can get in our out", and then told Osha "you're stuck here now", and then locked her in her room (and started the fire).

Mother Koril told the witches to "prepare for battle" and that she "would die before she would let anyone take her children".

The Jedi walked in, and made no threatening gestures.  The witches were all armed, and pointed bows and arrows at the Jedi.

Mother Aniseya says, what I would interpret as a veiled threat, "Some day those noble intentions you have will destroy every Jedi in the Galaxy."

Sol prevents Torbin from drawing his light sabre.

Mae runs in and yells "help me".

Then Mother Koril threatens with her spear and the smoke monster thing happens.

 

The Jedi don't do anything threatening in the entire interaction up to this point.  The members of the coven are threatening the entire time.

[Spawn_of_Apathy]

Somebody breaks into your home, threatening gestures or not you’re going to feel threatened. 
 

also the council and ranking Master on the mission told Sol “no”. 

[Greatoneshere]

I mean, it's pretty clear Mother Aniseya and Mother Koril weren't on the same page, so were working from two different playbooks. I definitely feel as if Mother Aniseya wanted to de-escalate things (despite doing what she did to Torbin previously) whereas Mother Koril is doing things Aniseya isn't aware of, like escalating things behind Aniseya's back by having Mae lock everyone in and having everyone prepare for battle, which isn't what Aniseya ordered. 

 

That being said, Aniseya clearly had plans for these twins and the coven and she hid those intentions from her kids and the Jedi. Turning into a smoke monster without warning was definitely the wrong move, even though she wasn't aware how much Koril had escalated things with the Jedi. If she had known, maybe she wouldn't have suddenly tried turning into a smoke monster, though I think this is a threatening act either way. Aniseya wasn't aware the Jedi already felt threatened by being locked in, etc. from what I could tell. Point being, all the witches were not on the same page initially so that contributed to everything.

[AbsolutSurgen]

8 minutes ago, Spawn_of_Apathy said:

Somebody breaks into your home, threatening gestures or not you’re going to feel threatened. 
 

also the council and ranking Master on the mission told Sol “no”. 

Rewatch it.  The witches had no reason to believe the Jedi would even be coming that night when they started to "arm themselves" and get ready for battle.  Everything that happened before Torbin/Sol walked in the room was about not letting Osha leave.  [We could get into the narrative nonsense of how Sol/Torbin got to the entrance of the mine (I think they said it was a mining operation?) at that exact time, but that's another problem.]

[AbsolutSurgen]

3 minutes ago, Greatoneshere said:

I mean, it's pretty clear Mother Aniseya and Mother Koril weren't on the same page, so were working from two different playbooks. I definitely feel as if Mother Aniseya wanted to de-escalate things (despite doing what she did to Torbin previously) whereas Mother Koril is doing things Aniseya isn't aware of, like escalating things behind Aniseya's back by having Mae lock everyone in and having everyone prepare for battle, which isn't what Aniseya ordered. 

 

That being said, Aniseya clearly had plans for these twins and the coven and she hid those intentions from her kids and the Jedi. Turning into a smoke monster without warning was definitely the wrong move, even though she wasn't aware how much Koril had escalated things with the Jedi. If she had known, maybe she wouldn't have suddenly tried turning into a smoke monster, though I think this is a threatening act either way. Aniseya wasn't aware the Jedi already felt threatened by being locked in, etc. from what I could tell. Point being, all the witches were not on the same page initially so that contributed to everything.

This is where the narrative problems start to appear.  The writers clearly are trying to tell the audience that Mother Anisseya wants to deescalate and let Osha go.

However, that is inconsistent with her threatening Sol (telling him that his intentions will lead to the death of all the Jedi) and then turning into the smoke monster.

IMHO, it goes back to how bad the writing is in this show.

[Greatoneshere]

1 hour ago, AbsolutSurgen said:

This is where the narrative problems start to appear.  The writers clearly are trying to tell the audience that Mother Anisseya wants to deescalate and let Osha go.

However, that is inconsistent with her threatening Sol (telling him that his intentions will lead to the death of all the Jedi) and then turning into the smoke monster.

IMHO, it goes back to how bad the writing is in this show.

 

Yeah, the back and forth on character motivations just doesn't make sense. Aniseya wants to let Osha go, but fucks with Torbin initially and later turns into a smoke monster without warning which begins to turn Mae too? These are the opposite of de-escalating anything when it otherwise does seem that that's what the character wants.

[Spawn_of_Apathy]

1 hour ago, AbsolutSurgen said:

IMHO, it goes back to how bad the writing is in this show.

No argument here on that. 
 

1 hour ago, Greatoneshere said:

 

Yeah, the back and forth on character motivations just doesn't make sense

it made it hard to buy in to so many characters, because their turns often were portrayed in a way that didn’t seem believable. It was like they did it just so a scene could happen.  

[AbsolutSurgen]

3 minutes ago, Spawn_of_Apathy said:

It was like they did it just so a scene could happen.  

[skillzdadirecta]

I'm going to beg to differ with a couple of takes I've seen here (surprise). Whether or not you enjoyed the show is up to you and your personal tastes, I can't tell anyone what to like and what not to like. I thought the show was entertaining at the very least and nowhere NEAR as poorly written as some people here and in other places on the internet suggest and other people that I know who don't live on message boards and Reddit posts thought the same.  Granted, I did NOT watch the show week to week, I started it about a week ago when there were two episodes left to air and I pretty much binged them in one chunk. I liked most of the characters and I really liked the martial arts infused fight scenes... this is pretty much how I always imagined Jedi and Sith would fight to be honest and I definitely felt like Jedi should be just as capable without their Sabers as they are with them. I DO feel like this show suffered from the same thing most Disney+ Marvel and Star Wars shows suffer from, they are basically movies broken up and stretched out over the course of seven or eight episodes and sometimes that can lead to "filler" or "padded" episodes that slow down the pace. Again, I didn't feel that much here with this show because I watched them all at once for the most part, but I could see how someone would feel that way if they were watching week to week. This is the reason why I watch very few shows week to week anymore to be honest. Haven't even started The Boys season 4 yet.

 

As far as this show and it's story... Yeah Osha was always going to be the Acolyte and this whole series was her origin story. Mae, who was the villain and percieved Acolyte from the beginning of the story, now has a clean slate and the two "sisters" will be set up as rivals if the show moves forward. I like this setup for several reasons... one, if Osha does become a full on villain, like Anakin, we know her backstory and why she became that way. Most villains are the hero in their own story and you can see now, why Osha would have felt betrayed by the Jedi Sol in particular,  her former master, mentor and father figure. It's no mistake that she bleeds HIS light saber and keeps it. She didn't have one of her own and how poetic is it that she is going to use the corrupted weapon of her teacher going forward? Works for me. He lied to her her whole life and had her thinking that her sister killed everyone and it was that grief and hate for her sister, who was innocent to an extent, that held her back from becoming a Jedi in the first place, the one thing she really wanted to do.  She was also thought her sister was dead, so she had no place to put that hate and grief and that led to her holding on to it for Qimir to exploit later. Again, works for me.

 

The Jedi... I STRONGLY disagree that the creators of this show not only hate the Jedi but aren't fans of Star Wars. Personally I picked up on several callbacks to other Star Wars properties that some may have missed. The show concludes with Mae, a very powerful force user who was presented primarily as an antagonist having killed at least two Jedi over the course of the series, having her mind wiped and is now in the hands of the Jedi, now where have I seen that before? Also the way the Jedi are presented here is a both a callback to and a foreshadowing of what's to come in the prequel trilogy with Anakin. Yoda says, in episode two I think, that too many Jedi have grown too sure of themselves, or something to that effect. Sol was so sure that he was right in his feelings about Osha that he disobeyed his master and went to the temple despite her warnings that it was a delicate situation and that conflict should be avoided. The Jedi weren't villains, but their dogmatic viewpoint and let's face it, arrogance is what led to the coven of Nightsisters being wiped out. They didn't intend for it to happen, but they caused it. Then they covered it up. Anniseya had already decided to let Osha go and said as much when she was dying. The show goes out of its way to show that what happened there was a treagedy made all the more tragic because it was due to a misunderstanding with two sides not talking to each other. Not that "The Jedi are evil and deserve to die." The show never says or implies that. It IS critical of the Jedi and the criticisms are valid and foreshadow the Jedi's eventual downfall.

 

The Sith... Qimir clealry isn't the Sith master here and since we see that Darth Plaguies is around. We don't know what Plagueis' plan is considering the Sith have a Rule of Two. It could be that he wants Osha to replace Qimir since she's potentially more powerful, or Qimir could be planning to use Osha to take Plaguies out because that's what Sith do. The Emperor played Anakin and Dooku against each other the same way, and later tried to play Vader and Luke against each other ina similar fashion. We won't know what that's about until we get other seasons, if we do. Qimir, being a handsome guy, is literally seducing Osha to the darkside using here anger, grief and yes, desires to draw her to him. It's why he holds her hand at the end of the season. The Sith are all about feeding their passions and giving into their emotions while the Jedi are not. The Jedi don't believe in attachment OR desire or even love for that matter, which is kind of silly when you're dealing with emotional beings. Are the Sith right and the Jedi wrong? No. The Sith are ruthlessly selfish and ultimately care about nothing and no one but themselves, but denying all attachments and emotions is a fools errand which Senator Jon J'onz aka Warlin Door, points out. This whole storyline and the way it was portrayed works for me too.

 

Ultimately, as I said, I enjoyed the show and I really like the themes it seems to be trying to explore, namely the philosophies of the Sith and Jedi and how they contrast and how things may not be as black and white as "Jedi are good, Sith are bad". While on the surface that is most certainly true, as with all things there is nuance and Star Wars has flirted with nuance but never fully explored it. At least not in any othe live action properties I've seen. I'm glad we are not in the New Republic/Empire/Post Rebellion era but I would REALLY like for future Star Wars properties to not only explore the post Sequel trilogy timeline, but to also move past the Jedi and The Sith and their respective dogma. I honestly thought that's where the sequels were heading but The Rise of Skywalker seemed to be establishing that we're going back to the status quo of "Jedi good, Sith evil" with no in between. Besides the Nightsisters, why can't there be force users in the Star Wars Universe who are neither Jedi OR Sith? I saw someone say in the comments for one of the episodes that "Star Wars fans are mostly adults now so why can't the shows reflect that and start telling more adult stories?" The problem is too many adult Star Wars fans want the current properties to take them back to when they were kids (especially the Gen-X Star Wars fans) and are resistant to anything that doesn't line up with their own head canon. It's why Solo was rejected despite that movie setting up some plot threads that had to end up being resolved in the comics (that would have been AWESOME to see on the big screen to be honest) 

 

I'm a Gen-X Star Wars fan... I grew up with the series. I remember seeing Empire and Return of the Jedi in theaters when I was a kid (I'm told that I was taken to see Star Wars when I was REALLY young but honestly I only remember seeing that movie in its entirety on TV and VHS) I can appreciate the old stuff but be open minded about the newer stuff. I read pretty much all of the Star Wars Comics Marvel has been putting out (The High Republic era stuff is REALLY good) and I'll admit, I'm somewhat biased when it comes to Star Wars. I enjoy the stuff that is really bad (except for Attack of the Clones and Rise of Skywalker... those are painful to watch with little redeeming qualities) so take my musings here with a grain of salt. I just thought I would interject another perspective because you guys were getting carried away in here. Was the Acolyte the best thing ever? No. But it wasn't a poorly written in consistent mess of a show. Not by a long shot.

[skillzdadirecta]

I double dog dare any of you to read all of that

[AbsolutSurgen]

3 hours ago, skillzdadirecta said:

I thought the show was entertaining at the very least and nowhere NEAR as poorly written as some people here and in other places on the internet suggest and other people that I know who don't live on message boards and Reddit posts thought the same.

FWIW, my wife didn't think it was that bad.  My kids thought the writing was worse than I did.  Youtubers have done a much better job at summarizing some of the inconsistencies (as have others here).  I can say that the plot inconsistencies and character behaviour during the episode was very noticable to me. YMMV.

3 hours ago, skillzdadirecta said:

As far as this show and it's story... Yeah Osha was always going to be the Acolyte and this whole series was her origin story. Mae, who was the villain and percieved Acolyte from the beginning of the story, now has a clean slate and the two "sisters" will be set up as rivals if the show moves forward. I like this setup for several reasons... one, if Osha does become a full on villain, like Anakin, we know her backstory and why she became that way. Most villains are the hero in their own story and you can see now, why Osha would have felt betrayed by the Jedi Sol in particular,  her former master, mentor and father figure. It's no mistake that she bleeds HIS light saber and keeps it. She didn't have one of her own and how poetic is it that she is going to use the corrupted weapon of her teacher going forward? Works for me. He lied to her her whole life and had her thinking that her sister killed everyone and it was that grief and hate for her sister, who was innocent to an extent, that held her back from becoming a Jedi in the first place, the one thing she really wanted to do.  She was also thought her sister was dead, so she had no place to put that hate and grief and that led to her holding on to it for Qimir to exploit later. Again, works for me.

They didn't write the story as if Osha was the protagonist.  She felt completely without agency in the entire story for me, and more like an NPC that was along for the ride.

IMHO, there were no heroes or villains in this story (more on that later).  If anything, the Dark Side users were portrayed in a much more sympathetic light than the light side ones.

3 hours ago, skillzdadirecta said:

The Jedi... I STRONGLY disagree that the creators of this show not only hate the Jedi but aren't fans of Star Wars. Personally I picked up on several callbacks to other Star Wars properties that some may have missed. The show concludes with Mae, a very powerful force user who was presented primarily as an antagonist having killed at least two Jedi over the course of the series, having her mind wiped and is now in the hands of the Jedi, now where have I seen that before? Also the way the Jedi are presented here is a both a callback to and a foreshadowing of what's to come in the prequel trilogy with Anakin. Yoda says, in episode two I think, that too many Jedi have grown too sure of themselves, or something to that effect. Sol was so sure that he was right in his feelings about Osha that he disobeyed his master and went to the temple despite her warnings that it was a delicate situation and that conflict should be avoided. The Jedi weren't villains, but their dogmatic viewpoint and let's face it, arrogance is what led to the coven of Nightsisters being wiped out. They didn't intend for it to happen, but they caused it. Then they covered it up. Anniseya had already decided to let Osha go and said as much when she was dying. The show goes out of its way to show that what happened there was a treagedy made all the more tragic because it was due to a misunderstanding with two sides not talking to each other. Not that "The Jedi are evil and deserve to die." The show never says or implies that. It IS critical of the Jedi and the criticisms are valid and foreshadow the Jedi's eventual downfall.

I was the one that said that.  So, I'll tell you what I meant.

When I was referring to them hating "Star Wars" -- I meant the type of storytelling and themes that are pervasive through 90% of the movies and TV shows.  At its heart, it is a space fantasy serial that features a battle between good and evil.  Yes, there are people who can't control their emotions and succumb to the dark side, and there are others who are redeemed.  But in the end, its pretty clear who the good guys and the bad guys are.  Even in Andor, it very much feels like the sacrifices being made are akin to the French Resistance fighting a Nazi occupation.

Again, they decided to ignore those themes for this show.  [I would argue they thumbed their nose at them, but i digress.]

3 hours ago, skillzdadirecta said:

The Sith... Qimir clealry isn't the Sith master here and since we see that Darth Plaguies is around. We don't know what Plagueis' plan is considering the Sith have a Rule of Two. It could be that he wants Osha to replace Qimir since she's potentially more powerful, or Qimir could be planning to use Osha to take Plaguies out because that's what Sith do. The Emperor played Anakin and Dooku against each other the same way, and later tried to play Vader and Luke against each other ina similar fashion. We won't know what that's about until we get other seasons, if we do. Qimir, being a handsome guy, is literally seducing Osha to the darkside using here anger, grief and yes, desires to draw her to him. It's why he holds her hand at the end of the season. The Sith are all about feeding their passions and giving into their emotions while the Jedi are not. The Jedi don't believe in attachment OR desire or even love for that matter, which is kind of silly when you're dealing with emotional beings. Are the Sith right and the Jedi wrong? No. The Sith are ruthlessly selfish and ultimately care about nothing and no one but themselves, but denying all attachments and emotions is a fools errand which Senator Jon J'onz aka Warlin Door, points out. This whole storyline and the way it was portrayed works for me too.

Leslye Headland spilled the beans in an interview pretty early on, telling us we would see 2 Sith.  IMHO, they're clearly trying to be vague about what is going on with the Sith and who Qimir really is.  Were they following the "Rule of Two" with Vader's Inquisitors?  Or with the Knights of Ren?  I think it is strange thing for people to get bent out of shape over.

We can argue about how realistic it is to deny attachments.  But, it was those attachments that led to the downfall of Anakin Skywalker -- both to his mother and Padme.

3 hours ago, skillzdadirecta said:

Ultimately, as I said, I enjoyed the show and I really like the themes it seems to be trying to explore, namely the philosophies of the Sith and Jedi and how they contrast and how things may not be as black and white as "Jedi are good, Sith are bad". While on the surface that is most certainly true, as with all things there is nuance and Star Wars has flirted with nuance but never fully explored it. At least not in any othe live action properties I've seen. I'm glad we are not in the New Republic/Empire/Post Rebellion era but I would REALLY like for future Star Wars properties to not only explore the post Sequel trilogy timeline, but to also move past the Jedi and The Sith and their respective dogma. I honestly thought that's where the sequels were heading but The Rise of Skywalker seemed to be establishing that we're going back to the status quo of "Jedi good, Sith evil" with no in between. Besides the Nightsisters, why can't there be force users in the Star Wars Universe who are neither Jedi OR Sith? I saw someone say in the comments for one of the episodes that "Star Wars fans are mostly adults now so why can't the shows reflect that and start telling more adult stories?" The problem is too many adult Star Wars fans want the current properties to take them back to when they were kids (especially the Gen-X Star Wars fans) and are resistant to anything that doesn't line up with their own head canon. It's why Solo was rejected despite that movie setting up some plot threads that had to end up being resolved in the comics (that would have been AWESOME to see on the big screen to be honest) 

The Sith are necessarily bad, because of what it means to go to the dark side of the force.

Quote

What happens when you go to the dark side is it goes out of balance, and then you get really selfish... when you get selfish, you get stuff. Or you want stuff and when you want stuff, and you get stuff, then you get afraid somebody's going to take it away from you... Once you become afraid that somebody's going to take it away from you, or you're going to lose it, then you start to become angry... And that anger leads to hate, and hate leads to suffering...

That doesn't, however, mean all Jedi are perfect.

Can you explore more complex narratives in Star Wars?  Absolutely -- they did it in Andor.  But, Andor still adhered to the overall Star Wars themes.  (Cassian Andor very much BECOMES a hero.  Luthen Rael is on the side of good -- even if he doesn't always behave in a 100% ethical way.)

 

I wasn't going to respond to your post, because I honestly don't want to yuck your yum.  But, felt I should provide clarity on what I meant.

[GoldenTongue]

Just finished a semi binge of the season. Longer take will follow, but for now, I’m still recovering from the mind fuck of Jason Mendoza being a Sith - I hope I’m not the first person to note that in this thread. 

[skillzdadirecta]

2 hours ago, AbsolutSurgen said:

yuck your yum. 

Lol I never heard that before... what does it mean  I want to add it to my vernacular for future use.

[Commissar SFLUFAN]

10 minutes ago, skillzdadirecta said:

Lol I never heard that before... what does it mean  I want to add it to my vernacular for future use.

 

It means the same as "rain on your parade".

[AbsolutSurgen]

12 minutes ago, skillzdadirecta said:

Lol I never heard that before... what does it mean  I want to add it to my vernacular for future use.

It means to criticize something that someone else enjoys.  (i.e. saying that I find something "yucky" after you say it is "yummy")

[AbsolutSurgen]

 

[Spawn_of_Apathy]

22 minutes ago, AbsolutSurgen said:

 

I don’t care for Star Wars Theory. He treats Star Wars, specifically pre-Disney like it is a religion that defines him. 
 

lol he also never defended Last Jedi. He took it extremely personally. He couldn’t even like Andor. Probably because there isn’t a single lightsaber. lol 
 

yeah yeah and the Jedi never sensed Palpatine and Plageus performing a ritual to create a dark side being. Nor could they detect Palpatine. Before the clone wars. “Pebble”. lol 

[AbsolutSurgen]

Just now, Spawn_of_Apathy said:

 

lol he also never defended Last Jedi. He took it extremely personally. He couldn’t even like Andor. Probably because there isn’t a single lightsaber. lol 

It was the post-series thoughts in this video from Headland that caught my attention. 
I’d only come across him in the last 2 weeks. 
 

Why would anyone defend The Last Jedi?