2024 Formula 1 Season. It’s Lights Out and Away We Go!

[TwinIon]

This was a better race than I expected it to be. It was again competitive at the front, and we at least got some interesting strategy decisions and a few good fights.

 

I can kind of agree that Perez's performance wasn't as disastrous as it's being talked about, but he continues to not look like he deserves that seat. I think the worst of it was that he was stuck behind a slow Aston and the Alpines for far too long. He's driving like a zero positions above replacement driver right now. Maybe the Red Bull isn't a dominant car anymore, but it's either the fastest or tied for fastest car on the grid.

 

His struggles do highlight just how good Verstappen is. Once he was in clean air, I think the race was over. Lando was catching in the end, but I think Max had enough tires to hold him off for a while yet. Max is just driving as well as anyone ever has, and even in a fair fight, it's hard not to expect him to come out on top.

 

It's also good to see that Merc's progress does appear to be real. I was worried that Canada was a one off and that they'd regress a bit, but while they're not quite RBR/McLaren level right now, they're closing the gap, largely at the expense of Ferrari.

 

Kudos to Alpine as well. They were a laughing stock at the beginning of the calendar, and now they're getting both cars into Q3 and getting points. The margins on the grid are now so small, it makes me wish that F1 had a scoring system that went below 10th. With Red Bull, McLaren, Mercedes, and Ferrari all fighting at the top, it's hard to appreciate the midfield battles when there are only a couple points scoring positions for them.

[AbsolutSurgen]

In the last 4 races, Perez has scored 8 points (2 8th place finishes and 2 failing to score).

 

He has been out pointed by Verstappen, Norris, Hamilton, Russel Leclel, Sainz, Piastri -- and tied with Stroll/Alonso.

 

That's a lot worse than "zero positions above replacement".  Unless the Red Bull is a lot worse than most people think it is.

[Spawn_of_Apathy]

Yeah once Max had Russell between him and Lando I am not sure how much he needed to push to make a gap. I think this ruined the strat by McLaren to start Lando on new softs instead if saving them for the end like Red Bull did. But Max did have to push at least a bit in the last stint to keep just enough of a gap to achieve victory. 

[Spawn_of_Apathy]

52 minutes ago, AbsolutSurgen said:

That's a lot worse than "zero positions above replacement".  Unless the Red Bull is a lot worse than most people think it is.

I kind of feel like this is somewhat the case. I think most drivers on the grid would not be doing any better in the RB than Perez is. Max is clearly not as comfortable in the car this season as last. I think he’s having to push hard enough and the car isn’t always doing what he wants. It’s not just that the RB20 is slow. It is putting in faster times than the RB19 at times. McLaren has just finally cracked it. Maybe the RB isnt slower all the time, but there are times where it seems like it is. I think the biggest difference maker is Max being just that much better at managing a race compared to Lando and Russell. If there had been a safety car restart sprint to the end I have a feeling we could have easily seen a repeat of Miami. 
 

it would not surprise me at all if you were to switch Lando and Max between cars, you would see Lando look slower in the RB and Max look faster in the McLaren. 
 

the biggest thing keeping Perez from looking worse was that Aston fell off a fucking cliff in reverse. VCARB too. Otherwise Perez may have been lucky to get 10th. 

[TwinIon]

1 hour ago, AbsolutSurgen said:

In the last 4 races, Perez has scored 8 points (2 8th place finishes and 2 failing to score).

 

He has been out pointed by Verstappen, Norris, Hamilton, Russel Leclel, Sainz, Piastri -- and tied with Stroll/Alonso.

 

That's a lot worse than "zero positions above replacement".  Unless the Red Bull is a lot worse than most people think it is.

You're right. I think his performance in the race in Spain, given his starting position was pretty much a 0, but over the last 4 races or so he's been in the negatives for sure. 

[AbsolutSurgen]

14 minutes ago, Spawn_of_Apathy said:

I kind of feel like this is somewhat the case. I think most drivers on the grid would not be doing any better in the RB than Perez is. Max is clearly not as comfortable in the car this season as last. I think he’s having to push hard enough and the car isn’t always doing what he wants. It’s not just that the RB20 is slow. It is putting in faster times than the RB19 at times. McLaren has just finally cracked it. Maybe the RB isnt slower all the time, but there are times where it seems like it is. I think the biggest difference maker is Max being just that much better at managing a race compared to Lando and Russell. If there had been a safety car restart sprint to the end I have a feeling we could have easily seen a repeat of Miami. 
 

it would not surprise me at all if you were to switch Lando and Max between cars, you would see Lando look slower in the RB and Max look faster in the McLaren. 
 

the biggest thing keeping Perez from looking worse was that Aston fell off a fucking cliff in reverse. VCARB too. Otherwise Perez may have been lucky to get 10th. 

I still think Max was managing his pace to protect the tires for much of the race on Sunday, and could probably have gone faster.  I think that Lewis/George/Fernando/Lando would be doing significantly better than what Sergio has been doing -- I am guessing that Charles/Carlos would as well.

 

Could it be that the kind of twitchy car that Max likes doesn't suit Sergio?  Maybe.  

[Spawn_of_Apathy]

I think it is a combination that it doesn’t suit Perez and other cars have gotten faster. I also think some upgrades earlier in the season seemed to upset the balance of the car, even for Max. Albon has talked about how unusual that pointy car setup is. I don’t think as many drivers could tame that car, not nearly as many as you think at least. Last season I was convinced that Perez would be faster in a slower car. The RB being that far out of his comfort zone. 
 

 Vegas kind of proved that a little bit when they fitted his car with the large rear wing to give him even more downforce on the rear tires in the corners and he was quicker than he had been. But he also lost speed on the high speed parts of the track compared to Max and everyone else using a small rear wing. 
 

and yeah Max was managing his tires. Lando did not seem to need to manage them as much as his sector times were often faster than Max’s and he was even able to extend his first stint. which translated to his last stint being later too. where again he didn’t seem to need to manage his tires. 

[AbsolutSurgen]

12 hours ago, Spawn_of_Apathy said:

and yeah Max was managing his tires. Lando did not seem to need to manage them as much as his sector times were often faster than Max’s and he was even able to extend his first stint. which translated to his last stint being later too. where again he didn’t seem to need to manage his tires. 

I don't think Lando extended his stint, he went to the original plan.  I think Max cut his first stint short to cover off the undercut by the Mercedes cars.

Lando needed to push to close the gap with Verstappen after going long in his first stint, Verstappen appeared, at least to me, to be managing the gap behind him.  Lando never got close enough to threaten Max, so it's impossible to know, IMHO, how much faster Max could have gone if he had needed to.

[Spawn_of_Apathy]

I thought the team radio message to Lando was to extend. Not that they haven’t been full of shit before, but commentators too said he extended, and it has been reported post race that he extended. 
 

I recall them also saying Max was safe from the undercut, because he was more than 2 seconds ahead of Russell. But he was probably getting to that crossover point where a set of medium tires would be faster than the current softs he had. So RB didn’t want to risk the gap disappearing. 

[AbsolutSurgen]

2 hours ago, Spawn_of_Apathy said:

I thought the team radio message to Lando was to extend. Not that they haven’t been full of shit before, but commentators too said he extended, and it has been reported post race that he extended. 
 

I recall them also saying Max was safe from the undercut, because he was more than 2 seconds ahead of Russell. But he was probably getting to that crossover point where a set of medium tires would be faster than the current softs he had. So RB didn’t want to risk the gap disappearing. 

I don't think they know what Lando's prime strategy was coming into the race.  I hadn't read anything from Lando/McLaren that they decided to extend beyond their original race strategy.

 

Max was only safe from the undercut by Russel if he pitted when he did (1-2 laps later, not sure which it was, I think it was 2 after Russell/Sainz and 1 after Hamilton).  If he stayed out to ~lap 23, he was absolutely not "safe" from that undercut (i.e. he would have had to pass Russel, and likely Sainz/Hamilton as well).  

Verstappen's lap time went from 1:21.2 on lap 16, to a 1:19.7 on lap 19.  The crossover point to switch tires was long past.

[Spawn_of_Apathy]

I cannot seem to find a site with the data. What was Russell doing over those laps, especially after his pitstop? 

[AbsolutSurgen]

21 minutes ago, Spawn_of_Apathy said:

I cannot seem to find a site with the data. What was Russell doing over those laps, especially after his pitstop? 

Click on my links.  You can change the lap number in the URL to see any lap you want -- Low 1:20s and high 1:19s from what I can see.  Russell's slow pitstop really hurt him as well.

Edit:  Lap times on the outlap are always slow(er) (as is any lap where they encounter traffic).

[Spawn_of_Apathy]

Yeah so that looks like Max was fading faster than Lando was who was still doing about the same time, just 2 tenths down. 

[Spawn_of_Apathy]

 

[AbsolutSurgen]

Looks like this is going to be a Verstappen weekend.  Looked dominant in the Sprint Race and qualifying.  Lando looks like he has cemented himself as the only potential contender.

 

Sergio in P8 in both the Sprint and Qualifying.

[Spawn_of_Apathy]

Yeah, the Red Bull looks like the clear faster car this weekend. I wonder if he will have the race pace to pull a 1 second lead before turn 1 of lap 2. 
 

Perez just seems like he’s “there” and little else. Other than not pissing Max off by occasionally beating him I do not get what Perez does for Red Bull to justify his contract salary. 
 

I see Oscar getting a lot of heat for take advantage of the opening and weakness in Lando to grab second in the Sprint race. I see that and it makes think it’s bitter Lando fans. It is a shame for Piastri that his lap got deleted in Q3 for track limits. I didn’t think there was enough space to have all four wheels past the white line and not dip the wheels fully in the gravel. But whatever. 
 

I am a but annoyed that all the forecast rain we were seeing a week ago for this weekend just hasn’t shown up. 

[TUFKAK]

That ended up being much better than expected.

[Spawn_of_Apathy]

Yeah that was 2021 Max. Which I wondered if he’s ever go that hard vs Lando. I am happy to see Lando has stopped letting Max bully him on track. Lando seemed like he would always give Max way too much space.

 

for Max this seemed wasteful as if he stayed within 5 seconds of Lando he’d still get the win. Max will still push Lando, but it will be interesting if going forward Lando starts backing down again. 

[Spawn_of_Apathy]

I also find it interesting that after Perez’s 3 place grid penalty following Canada, Max and Lando not getting a penalty for driving unsafe cars back to the pit seems highly hypocritical by the FIA.  

[AbsolutSurgen]

Max not getting penalized in '21 for his sketchy driving against Hamilton is coming back to bite the FIA.

1 hour ago, Spawn_of_Apathy said:

for Max this seemed wasteful as if he stayed within 5 seconds of Lando he’d still get the win. Max will still push Lando, but it will be interesting if going forward Lando starts backing down again. 

Max didn't know about the investigation.  Marko said it was an error not to tell him.

25 minutes ago, Spawn_of_Apathy said:

I also find it interesting that after Perez’s 3 place grid penalty following Canada, Max and Lando not getting a penalty for driving unsafe cars back to the pit seems highly hypocritical by the FIA.  

They had damaged tires/wheels, but didn't have any bodywork at risk of covering the track/falling off. 

[Spawn_of_Apathy]

On 6/30/2024 at 2:13 PM, AbsolutSurgen said:

They had damaged tires/wheels, but didn't have any bodywork at risk of covering the track/falling off. 

Max’s tire could have come off completely and Lando’s car was being disintegrates by that tire. You could see the debris littered on the track for the rest of the race. 
 

I’m not saying they should have gotten a penalty as I think Perez should not have. It is just inconsistent. 

[TwinIon]

On 6/30/2024 at 11:46 AM, Spawn_of_Apathy said:

I also find it interesting that after Perez’s 3 place grid penalty following Canada, Max and Lando not getting a penalty for driving unsafe cars back to the pit seems highly hypocritical by the FIA.  

I thought the deal with Perez was that he (at the team's order) decided to stay out on the track and do another lap. Max and Lando went straight for the pits.

[TwinIon]

Bummer that the fight at the front ended a battle for the lead, especially for Lando to end up with a DNF. Still, it's great that the field is so close that one iffy pit stop is enough to bring the lead into question.

 

I saw a comment on Reddit that brought up how all the podium places were essentially "second drivers" that are all good enough to be at the top when something goes wrong, something Red Bull is lacking. It's pretty terrible that after all that Max was still nearly 20 seconds ahead of Checo. 

 

Rewatching that incident drives home how mild it was. Yeah, I think Max was being a bit naughty, but it's such a shame that such incidental contact took them both out. What is it about the tires on F1 cars that makes them so brittle? I understand why the aero and the bodywork is so fragile, but the tires on F1 cars also seem to bust too easily. The vast majority of the time a similar incident in IndyCar would result in basically no damage.

[Spawn_of_Apathy]

39 minutes ago, TwinIon said:

I thought the deal with Perez was that he (at the team's order) decided to stay out on the track and do another lap. Max and Lando went straight for the pits.

nah, he drove straight to pit. But everyone was saying the only reason he tried to do so was because RBR didn’t want a safety car while Max was in the lead. … which, maybe, but the car was still drivable. 
 

32 minutes ago, TwinIon said:

Rewatching that incident drives home how mild it was. Yeah, I think Max was being a bit naughty, but it's such a shame that such incidental contact took them both out. What is it about the tires on F1 cars that makes them so brittle? I understand why the aero and the bodywork is so fragile, but the tires on F1 cars also seem to bust too easily. The vast majority of the time a similar incident in IndyCar would result in basically no damage.

yeah some people act like it was some Senna or Schumacher like dive into a non-existent gap to take out an opponent. We’ve even seen similar contact where nobody had tire damage. Just a bit of rubbing was at it looked like and *pop*

[AbsolutSurgen]

17 hours ago, Spawn_of_Apathy said:

nah, he drove straight to pit. But everyone was saying the only reason he tried to do so was because RBR didn’t want a safety car while Max was in the lead. … which, maybe, but the car was still drivable. 

Driving back to avoid a safety car was the reason RB gave the Stewards according to the stewards decision.  The car lost several carbon fibre parts while driving back, and there was a huge risk of the rear wing assembly falling off, and there was no realistic way the car could continue.

Driving back to the pits with a puncture happens all the time in F1.  I can't remember a time that a car has tried to drive back to the pits with the kind of damage Sergio had.

 

18 hours ago, TwinIon said:

Rewatching that incident drives home how mild it was. Yeah, I think Max was being a bit naughty, but it's such a shame that such incidental contact took them both out. What is it about the tires on F1 cars that makes them so brittle? I understand why the aero and the bodywork is so fragile, but the tires on F1 cars also seem to bust too easily. The vast majority of the time a similar incident in IndyCar would result in basically no damage.

I'm not sure if your feed had the same post race break-down of the laps leading up to the incident.  Max was consistently moving under braking to block Lando on the inside.  And the rules require Max to leave Lando a full cars width inside the white line, and didn't.  The 10-second penalty was well deserved, and he probably should have received a 5-second penalty several laps earlier.

[Spawn_of_Apathy]

28 minutes ago, AbsolutSurgen said:

19 hours ago, TwinIon said:

I'm not sure if your feed had the same post race break-down of the laps leading up to the incident.  Max was consistently moving under braking to block Lando on the inside.  And the rules require Max to leave Lando a full cars width inside the white line, and didn't.  The 10-second penalty was well deserved, and he probably should have received a 5-second penalty several laps earlier.

I saw commentary from a racing driver who has read the sporting regulations for F1 and apparently there is bo explicit rule saying you cannot move under breaking. The regulation cites driving in an erratic or unsafe manner, which is open for interpretation and debate. It just so happens that often moving in the breaking zone during a battle has been considered erratic or unsafe. Also that during a battle is important as drivers sometimes will move in the breaking zone when racing their own line without any fear of penalty. 

[TwinIon]

1 hour ago, AbsolutSurgen said:

I'm not sure if your feed had the same post race break-down of the laps leading up to the incident.  Max was consistently moving under braking to block Lando on the inside.  And the rules require Max to leave Lando a full cars width inside the white line, and didn't.  The 10-second penalty was well deserved, and he probably should have received a 5-second penalty several laps earlier.

Unforuntately the ESPN feed cuts out pretty early, but I completely agree that Max was deserving of a penalty for the final incident and probably should have gotten one earlier. My point was just that even with Max's antics that it's a shame that F1 cars and tires are so fragile that such minimal contact can have such dramatic consequences.

 

This race was quite a reminder of how aggressive Max gets when fighting for the lead. I wasn't sure if a couple years of complete dominance and a few championships would make Max any more of a measured driver when really pushed, and it seems the answer is no. 

[AbsolutSurgen]

It was communicated years ago as being a clear infraction, I have not heard any new guidance since.

ERROR: The request could not be satisfied

WWW.MOTORSPORT.COM

 

He was doing similar tactics in earlier laps while Lando tried to move to the inside.

[Spawn_of_Apathy]

1 hour ago, AbsolutSurgen said:

The car lost several carbon fibre parts while driving back, and there was a huge risk of the rear wing assembly falling off, and there was no realistic way the car could continue.

Not every car that sheds carbon fiber on the way back to the pits gets penalized. Not every car that makes it to the pits and then retires due to damage or failure gets a penalty. The rear wing assembly could have fallen off, but didn’t. Had the rear wing fallen off I could see the penalty. 

[AbsolutSurgen]

He was found in breach of 26.10

Quote

26.10 If a driver has serious mechanical difficulties, he must leave the track as soon as it is safe to do so.

It's pretty cut and dry.

 

Edit:  In no world would a punctured tire be considered a "serious mechanical difficulty".

[Spawn_of_Apathy]

https://youtu.be/iu3tip9JZ_E?si=_1u4NGGFjQg34J68

F1 won’t allow the imbedding of the video, but the on board is kind of interesting. One could almost think he was surprised Lando made it that far along side and was there. As if he was already looking to the apex. I’ve seen some point out that max is moving towards the outside before he makes an adjustment. 
 

Peter Windsor is of the mind that Max is not at fault at all. He blames DRS as it put lando into a closing gap faster than he should have got there. I wouldn’t go that far as by now these drivers should have a feeling on the speed differential DRS provides. This isnt year 1 of DRS implementation. Though I do hate how often DRS is needed to have a good race. There have been times it felt like DRS ruined a perfectly good battle. I do think this was a case where DRS kept this battle going and allowed it to happen sooner than it might otherwise have. 

 

[Spawn_of_Apathy]

1 hour ago, AbsolutSurgen said:

He was found in breach of 26.10

It's pretty cut and dry.

 

Edit:  In no world would a punctured tire be considered a "serious mechanical difficulty".

it is a significant reduction in mechanical grip. Kimi Raikkonen drove to the pit missing a rear wing to retire the car. Daniel Ricciardo in Brazil last year had a broken rear wing and came into the pit after it being damaged un turn 1. So at what point is it “serious mechanical difficulty”?

[Spawn_of_Apathy]

https://youtu.be/nziPr5_7InU?si=-4vo3sbPjEfMRXG5

Noris onboard of the incident and drive to the pit. That got dicy. 

[AbsolutSurgen]

1 hour ago, Spawn_of_Apathy said:

it is a significant reduction in mechanical grip. Kimi Raikkonen drove to the pit missing a rear wing to retire the car. Daniel Ricciardo in Brazil last year had a broken rear wing and came into the pit after it being damaged un turn 1. So at what point is it “serious mechanical difficulty”?

Didn't Kimi do that 20 years ago?  I don't recall the specifics (nor do I know the rules from then).

 

Daniel managed to still circulate with the pack with his wing, (it wasn't damaged to this extent).

This is what Sergio's wing looked like, and the right side was flapping around (and eventually came off).

[Spawn_of_Apathy]

Yeah it was 2005. The regulation existed even then. So is that the line, piece hanging off? Or a piece came off? 
 

Lando was wrestling with the car moving around through turns 6-7. That got dangerous. If somebody has hit Lando here would he have gotten a penalty? I would imagine yes. So again, why is this so different? He has very little control of the car and is shedding and throwing carbon fiber pieces, but it’s because of a destroyed tire, so it is ok? 
 

the regulations are so broad and general that you can penalize or forgive almost anything.