Gaza/Israel Update (09/02): general strike/mass protests in Israel pressure Netanyahu to agree to cease-fire deal

[Greatoneshere]

1 minute ago, TUFKAK said:

A European power kicked the Jews out sooooo

 

can we kick out the “Palestinians” too 

 

The answer is no to both but two wrongs don't make a right. Are you suggesting because European powers kicked the Jews out of Europe that then justifies the Jews kicking the Palestinians out of Palestine? I'm not quite sure what you're saying here. 

[Greatoneshere]

Just now, TUFKAK said:

I mean this is all sincerity 

 

ever gone to Navajo nation

 

I have but I'm not understanding the connection you're trying to make.

[UpvoteShittyTakesOnly]

you cant seriously argue that the palestinians would accept pre 1967 borders in negotiations when they flatly refuse any deal that doesnt include a full right of return

[TUFKAK]

39 minutes ago, Greatoneshere said:

 

I completely agree (see my post directly above yours) that Europe after WW2 is responsible - but the Jews and Theodore Hertzel had started the Zionist movement in the 1890's, long before either World War. Of course anti-semitism is an old trope and that after WW2 Europe just wanted to get rid of the "Jew" problem. There is no "moral reasoning" for Zionism though. Facing hatred and racism in one area (Europe) doesn't mean you go and displace a completely unrelated people (Palestinians) elsewhere. I guess black people, instead of fighting for their rights in America, should all move to Chile and push out all the Chileans then.

 

Also: "not Israel, who fought multiple wars to ensure their own existence". Yeah, they fought multiple wars to keep and take additional land that was never theirs to have in the first place. You keep acting like because Israel was given a UN mandate to "have" Palestine and Europe was callous in its decision making that Israel's hands are free and clean as a result. Every decision Israel made after the UN and the UK broke up Palestine is on Israel, not on Europe or the UK. 

 

Also, your racism towards Muslims is not cool in my estimation (or that's how it's coming off). I was born in the US, I'm a first generation Pakistani-American raised deeply Muslim, and while I'm an agnostic/apatheist (not atheist, apatheist) and I have no love for Islam (or any religion, including Judaism) but, just as an example, I know a lot of Muslims who are trans, and a lot more Muslims in Muslim countries who support LGBT+ rights in these regressive countries. Islam and modernity are at a crossroads but for a religion with over a billion followers it's ridiculous to be like: "Lebanon wants to kill my niece". That's patently untrue. Let's say your niece was trans. There are Christians who want to kill your niece in white, Christian dominant countries but I don't see anyone saying: "Florida wants to kill my niece". Yes, of course the conservative elements of Muslim society want to kill trans, LGBT+, Jews, etc. But this broad brush of "Muslim Arabs want to all kill my niece" isn't true in the least and does a disservice to all the Muslims I know who hate what Hamas did, don't like violence, and try to fight for what is right, of which there are many more than you're giving credit for when there's over a billion Muslims out there. I assure you if they all wanted to kill someone, the sheer numbers would make that succeed with whatever Muslims wanted to do - the fact that they are as fractious a religion as any other bears out that this isn't true. They are no more a monolithic group than Christians or Jews are.

 

Israel has committed a number of heinous acts over the decades to take and keep the land and saying "I won't side with the facts because I believe all Muslims want to kill a certain kind of person" strikes me as racist to a large degree and I hate suggesting that about you because I don't want it to be true but that's what I'm seeing with such overly broad statements to justify very specific points about the Palestinians' right to exist and how Israel has denied them that more and more these past 75 years. Have you been to Palestine vs. Israel? I've been to both places and I can assure you the difference in living conditions is so apparent that it's clear mistreatment on the part of the Israelis, who hold all the power here, both militarily and who they are backed by.

@Greatoneshere

 

The racial animus is here 

 

nobody said white until you

[TUFKAK]

5 minutes ago, Greatoneshere said:

 

I have but I'm not understanding the connection you're trying to make.

I was drawing a connection 

[Spork3245]

I’m just here to mention that over 20% of Israeli citizens are Arab Muslims and around 10% of the active IDF are Arab Muslims (that’s 10% of the entire military, not 10% of Arab citizens)… and Arab Israelis aren’t required to serve in the IDF like the rest of the population, that number is all volunteers. 
Take from this info whatever you will. 

[TUFKAK]

Just now, Spork3245 said:

I’m just here to mention that over 20% of Israeli citizens are Arab Muslims and around 10% of the active IDF are Arab Muslims (that’s 10% of the entire military, not 10% of Arab citizens)… and Arab Israelis aren’t required to serve in the IDF like the rest of the population, that number is all volunteers. 
Take from this info whatever you will. 

There’s a few progressives who would accept my niece though so it’s cool

[Greatoneshere]

5 minutes ago, TUFKAK said:

@Greatoneshere

 

The racial animus is here 

 

nobody said white until you

 

I said there are white Christians in the US who one could argue want to kill your niece if she was, say for example, trans. That's all I said. What racial animus are you referring to? Can you bold it from my post?

[Greatoneshere]

4 minutes ago, TUFKAK said:

I was drawing a connection 

 

Which was? That's my question.  

[TUFKAK]

Just now, Greatoneshere said:

 

I said there are white Christians in the US who one could argue want to kill your niece if she was, say, trans. That's all I said. What racial animus are you referring to? Can you bold it from my post?

Those people are fringe 

 

not the fucking govt of a nation/or is it open air prison now, I can’t keep track of the narrative 

[TUFKAK]

1 minute ago, Greatoneshere said:

 

Which was? That's my question.  

They’re a conquered people, he’ll probably better than us, when is it ok

[SuperSpreader]

14 minutes ago, Greatoneshere said:

The answer is no to both but two wrongs don't make a right

 

Just wait till the third wrong 

[Greatoneshere]

9 minutes ago, TUFKAK said:

Those people are fringe 

 

not the fucking govt of a nation/or is it open air prison now, I can’t keep track of the narrative 

 

You could argue the Floridian government absolutely seems to want to target trans people, which isn't fringe. No, it's not an open air prison (though Florida kinda is lol) - the point of the comparison is to illustrate that it's relative - fringe is fringe relative to the development of the country (infrastructurally and educationally) to its people. My point being that in the same way that the average Floridian probably doesn't want to murder trans people, the average Palestinian probably doesn't want to murder your niece. Yes, is Palestine way more fucked up, run by gang governments and the like? Yes, of course! All that needs fixing - and they ended up this way in large part because of Israel's policies towards them over the decades, that's my entire point about how Israel is a large part of the problem. They created this context is large part.

 

Either way where is the racial animus?

 

8 minutes ago, TUFKAK said:

They’re a conquered people, he’ll probably better than us, when is it ok

 

When is what okay? Fighting back? The Navajo did that and lost - are you suggesting Palestinians, like the Navajo and Tibetans before them, just give up completely at this point?

 

5 minutes ago, SuperSpreader said:

Just wait till the third wrong 

 

This is my entire concern with an Israeli war in Gaza - it will be brutal and one sided. That will be the third wrong.

[SuperSpreader]

3 minutes ago, Greatoneshere said:

 

This is my entire concern with an Israeli war in Gaza - it will be brutal and one sided. That will be the third wrong.

 

It's gonna be wrong regardless of what you pick. That's the reality. There is no right side.

[UpvoteShittyTakesOnly]

1 minute ago, Greatoneshere said:

Yes, is Palestine way more fucked up, run by gang governments and the like? Yes, of course! All that needs fixing - and they ended up this way in large part to Israel's policies towards them over the decades, that's my entire point about how Israel is a large part of the problem.

 

even israel is at fault for the religiously derived views on lgbt people which are views shared by most countries in the region except israel

 

that one seems like a stretch amigo

[Bacon]

Ignorant person chiming, but the more Hamas propaganda I see the more I view them as "clearly the baddies in this conflict".  I mean, I pretty much thought they were the "bad guys" when it was reported that they were killing, raping, kidnapping from the get-go, but the propaganda and the Hamas internet defenders definitely make it easier to pick a side from behind my computer screen.

 

Tho, I don't think @Greatoneshere is wrong with his:

Quote

There are Christians who want to kill your niece in white, Christian dominant countries but I don't see anyone saying: "Florida wants to kill my niece".

I feel it is a pretty good point.

[Greatoneshere]

30 minutes ago, SuperSpreader said:

It's gonna be wrong regardless of what you pick. That's the reality. There is no right side.

 

The right side is minimizing casualties as much as possible and using non-violent means wherever and whenever you can but that's not the vibe I'm getting.

 

29 minutes ago, UpvoteShittyTakesOnly said:

even israel is at fault for the religiously derived views on lgbt people which are views shared by most countries in the region except israel

 

that one seems like a stretch amigo

 

I'm not suggesting Israel is the reason for some Palestinians' regressive religious views. I'm saying Palestine's broken infrastructure and governments (not religious views) are in large part Israel's fault and their policies towards Palestine. It's hard to create a working country and government when you essentially live in an apartheid state where Israeli settlers slowly but surely take more and more land slowly over time.

 

25 minutes ago, Bacon said:

Ignorant person chiming, but the more Hamas propaganda I see the more I view them as "clearly the baddies in this conflict".  I mean, I pretty much thought they were the "bad guys" when it was reported that they were killing, raping, kidnapping from the get-go, but the propaganda and the Hamas internet defenders definitely make it easier to pick a side from behind my computer screen.

 

Hamas is the bad guy too, but Israel's government has committed numerous atrocities over the decades too. And the Palestinian people do not equal Hamas so having Palestinian civilians suffer Hamas' choice to unilaterally attack Israel is both on Hamas and Israel but not the Palestinian civilians.

[SuperSpreader]

16 minutes ago, Greatoneshere said:

 

The right side is minimizing casualties as much as possible and using non-violent means wherever and whenever you can but that's not the vibe I'm getting.

 

I mean on this planet yeah. 

[Bacon]

15 minutes ago, Greatoneshere said:

Hamas is the bad guy too, but Israel's government has committed numerous atrocities over the decades too. And the Palestinian people do not equal Hamas so having Palestinian civilians suffer Hamas' choice to unilaterally attack Israel is both on Hamas and Israel.

I agree, but if I was your average Jo living in Israel during the Hamas attack, I probably wouldn't care about the distinction, so it's pretty hard for me to see it fairly even when I can agree that you aren't wrong. It's real easy to ignore history.

[UpvoteShittyTakesOnly]

24 minutes ago, Greatoneshere said:

The right side is minimizing casualties as much as possible and using non-violent means wherever and whenever you can but that's not the vibe I'm getting.

what is a war effort where any side did more to avoid civilian casualties than israel 

 

it look from my limited pov to be pretty standard horrors of war stuff which is why avoiding war is good

[Greatoneshere]

39 minutes ago, Bacon said:

I agree, but if I was your average Jo living in Israel during the Hamas attack, I probably wouldn't care about the distinction, so it's pretty hard for me to see it fairly even when I can agree that you aren't wrong. It's real easy to ignore history.

 

But the average joe living in Israel didn't care when their government was intentionally targeting medics and hospitals in 2014 trying to help Palestinians getting killed in Gaza by Israel. They get livid when they're attacked by Hamas (understandably so) but when the apartheid state is hurting the far more oppressed people over the past 75 years then crickets. Real strong white South African apartheid state energy vibes whenever blacks attacked whites back in the day with this logic. Everyone forget shit like this from 2014? 

 

Israel/Gaza: Attacks on medical facilities and civilians add to war crime allegations - Amnesty International

WWW.AMNESTY.ORG

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The continuing bombardment of civilian homes in several areas of the Gaza Strip, as well as the Israeli shelling of a hospital, add to the list of possible war crimes that demand an urgent independent international investigation, said Amnesty International.  The third floor of the Al-Aqsa hospital in Deir al-Balah was struck by Israeli shelling, […]

 

28 minutes ago, UpvoteShittyTakesOnly said:

what is a war effort where any side did more to avoid civilian casualties than israel 

 

it look from my limited pov to be pretty standard horrors of war stuff which is why avoiding war is good

 

Sorry, this is barely coherent English, I genuinely don't understand what you're saying. Yes, so far it seems like typical "horrors of war" stuff but given the bloodlust I've seen I'm sensing/feeling war crimes incoming.

[Greatoneshere]

I think a quote from Gladiator really applies to some degree to the views I'm seeing here, try to see it from the primarily oppressed side's people, not powerful, first world nation Israel backed by the world while the UN doesn't even recognize Palestine as anything but an observer state.

 

Quintus: "A people should know when they're conquered."

Maximus: "Would you, Quintus? Would I?"

 

 

[UpvoteShittyTakesOnly]

3 minutes ago, Greatoneshere said:

Sorry, this is barely coherent English, I genuinely don't understand what you're saying. Yes, so far it seems like typical "horrors of war" stuff but given the bloodlust I've seen I'm sensing/feeling war crimes incoming

 

what is a war effort you can think of where any side in the conflict did more than what israel is doing to avoid civilian casualties 

 

but now it seems you have no example of a particular thing that is an issue and instead are predicting the future which is a weird route to go so ill take that as a sign to move along

 

have at it

[Greatoneshere]

8 minutes ago, UpvoteShittyTakesOnly said:

 

what is a war effort you can think of where any side in the conflict did more than what israel is doing to avoid civilian casualties 

 

but now it seems you have no example of a particular thing that is an issue and instead are predicting the future which is a weird route to go so ill take that as a sign to move along

 

have at it

 

I'm not predicting the future. My first post started with just making clear Israel contributed significantly to why we are where we are now. That's it. All I'm saying in terms of predicting the future is that between a lot of bloodlust (understandable or not) that I've seen, along with what Netanyahu's government has been saying, and in conjunction with a full potential incoming invasion of the Gaza Strip when the IDF is fired up, tells me that this could be really bad. Do I know for sure? No. Do I think a ground war in Gaza helps, especially with a hostage crisis? No.

[johnny]

fuck israel and the countries that support them  

 

supporting israel atp is fucking hilarious lmao. obviously what hamas did is terrible. but supporting israel and all the terrible shit they've done because of that? easy pass. 

[Bacon]

fuck hamas and the countries that support them

 

supporting hamas atp is fucking hilarious lmao. obviously what israel did is terrible. but supporting hamas and all the terrible shit they've done because of that? easy pass.

[Bacon]

I'm not sure if that joke works or if I should have used Palestine.  Also not sure if the "and the countries that support them" works either.

[mclumber1]

What is life like for Arab Israelis?  By that I mean, Israeli citizens who happen to be Arab.   From what I've read it's a night and day difference between being an Arab Israeli and a Palestinian. 

[Spork3245]

4 minutes ago, mclumber1 said:

What is life like for Arab Israelis?  By that I mean, Israeli citizens who happen to be Arab.   From what I've read it's a night and day difference between being an Arab Israeli and a Palestinian. 

Around 10% of the IDF are Arab Israelis and that’s with conscription being voluntary for non-Jews in Israel. There are also multiple Arabs who hold seats on the Israeli Parliament.
It’s almost like the issues are solely with people who don’t think they have a right to exist and not Arabs or Muslims in general. 

[Massdriver]

There are a lot of ways to think about this.  For example, one way is to think about the consequences of each side's actions, such as the use of statistics about how many people are injured or killed on both sides. Usually these are presented to show that Israel is in the wrong since there are more casualties on the Palestinian side. 

 

Intent is another way to think about it. It's harder to pin this one down, but the point is often made that Israel is showing restraint since they have the capability to kill far greater numbers of people than they currently have been, but make efforts not to. It is argued then that if Hamas had the capabilities of Israel, they would commit far greater atrocities than we have seen Israel commit in recent years. 

 

 

[Greatoneshere]

Let me ask a question that is not rhetorical to the board at large: when it comes to China and Tibet, we side with Tibet. When it comes to Azerbaijan and the Armenians in N-K in Azerbaijan, we side with the Armenians. When it comes to white colonialists from Europe and Native Americans, we side with the Native Americans. When it comes to white South Africans and black South Africans in their apartheid state, we side with the black South Africans. In each of these cases, the oppressed side sometimes brutally fought back at different points - let's not forget the brutal guerilla warfare and scalping tactics of certain Native American tribes fighting back at the time. Consider those tribes the Hamas of their day, while other tribes got hoodwinked with alliances and peace treaties. Collecting all these examples, its a wide range of races, ethnicities and religions involved.

 

So why is it when it comes to Israel and Palestine it's any different? How is it any different? Because they're Muslim as opposed to Tibetan, black, Christian, Jewish, Native American or something else? Ridiculous, there's nothing uniquely regressive about Islam than any other religion in the world that it needs singling out. I hate religion overall but Islam is just a religion like any other than can be (and has been) abused. A powerful, first world nation (Israel) took over and continues to oppress a third world, poor, uneducated "nation" (Palestine). The powerful nation sends in settlers to take over Palestinian lands. They create camps and open air prisons. They destroyed hospitals and killed medics. Etc. etc. Palestinians have fought back, just like Native Americans, black South Africans and so on. We can, for example, say what a horrific thing it was that so-and-so Native American tribe brutally attacked Virginia, let's say. That doesn't mean the white colonialists are in the right overall given the context of why they attacked, and we continue to sympathize with the power gap between the two groups in that example (slings and arrows vs. white colonialists with guns) but not Israel vs. Palestine?

 

Israel and Palestine are no different - it's just Israel is a US ally, has been for a long time, and until social media and globalization most of the West just believed what teachers and the mainstream media fed them (Israel good, Palestine bad). That's changed, which is why it's bizarre (but good) to see more Palestinian support in the world than I ever have. Hamas sucks and did horrible things. But Israel is the main offender here if we take into account context as to why we are where we are right now. None of this is in a vacuum, just like China-Tibet, et. al. weren't in a vacuum.

[Commissar SFLUFAN]

9 minutes ago, Greatoneshere said:

Let me ask a question that is not rhetorical to the board at large: when it comes to China and Tibet, we side with Tibet.

 

I'm actually pro-Beijing on this one.

[Greatoneshere]

10 minutes ago, Commissar SFLUFAN said:

 

I'm actually pro-Beijing on this one.

 

I do understand with you that you've said that the neo-religious zealotry of the Tibetans makes you no fan of theirs, but in terms of oppression, etc. it plays out the same as an example. They still should get to choose their own destiny and either way China didn't do what they did to help elevate or raise Tibetans out of the situation you're despising about them so China still comes out looking really bad.  

[Commissar SFLUFAN]

24 minutes ago, Massdriver said:

There are a lot of ways to think about this.  For example, one way is to think about the consequences of each side's actions, such as the use of statistics about how many people are injured or killed on both sides. Usually these are presented to show that Israel is in the wrong since there are more casualties on the Palestinian side. 

 

Intent is another way to think about it. It's harder to pin this one down, but the point is often made that Israel is showing restraint since they have the capability to kill far greater numbers of people than they currently have been, but make efforts not to. It is argued then that if Hamas had the capabilities of Israel, they would commit far greater atrocities than we have seen Israel commit in recent years. 

 

Because it's ostensibly considered to be a developed, "Western" nation, I have no issue admitting that I hold Israel to a far higher moral standard than its "less developed" neighbors and that by and large shapes my perception of its actions.

 

If that's indicative of the "soft bigotry of low expectations", then so be it - I'm guilty as charged.

[Commissar SFLUFAN]

Family of Al Jazeera Gaza bureau chief killed in Israeli air raid

WWW.ALJAZEERA.COM

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Attack kills daughter, wife, son of Al Jazeera Arabic correspondent Wael Dahdouh.

 

Quote

The wife, son, daughter and grandson of Wael Dahdouh, Al Jazeera Arabic’s bureau chief in Gaza, have been killed in an Israeli air raid.

 

Footage aired on Al Jazeera showed Dahdouh entering the Al-Aqsa Martyrs Hospital in Deir el-Balah on Wednesday to see his dead wife, son and daughter in the morgue.

 

He was shown crouching and touching the face of his 15-year-old son, Mahmoud, who wanted to be a journalist like his father.

 

Later footage showed him holding the shrouded body of his seven-year-old daughter, Sham, seeming to speak to her as he looked at her bloodied face after the attack on the Nuseirat refugee camp.

 

Looking shocked, Dahdouh spoke to Al Jazeera on his way out of the hospital: “What happened is clear. This is a series of targeted attacks on children, women and civilians. I was just reporting from Yarmouk about such an attack, and the Israeli raids have targeted many areas, including Nuseirat.