osxmatt Posted October 14, 2023 Share Posted October 14, 2023 Gazans Flee to South as Israel Calls for 1.1 Million People to Evacuate - The New York Times WWW.NYTIMES.COM Quote Airstrikes killed at least 70 Palestinians and wounded another 200 people who were fleeing northern Gaza, the Interior Ministry said. The strikes hit cars and trucks heading out on Salah al-Din Street, a route that connects Gaza’s north and south. Earlier reports had put the death toll closer to 40. Israel's military has told Gazans to evacuate from the north immediately. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Signifyin(g)Monkey Posted October 14, 2023 Share Posted October 14, 2023 I found Yuval Noah Harari’s take on the ‘moral maze’ of the current conflict to be particularly thoughtful: 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Commissar SFLUFAN Posted October 14, 2023 Share Posted October 14, 2023 32 minutes ago, Signifyin(g)Monkey said: I found Yuval Noah Harari’s take on the ‘moral maze’ of the current conflict to be particularly thoughtful: I certainly enjoyed both of his books immensely. I'm in agreement that it's very difficult for those "on the ground" to effectively navigate the "moral maze", but that's where "responsible" external parties engage to facilitate that difficult -- if not seemingly impossible-- navigation. Unfortunately, there are none of those in this conflict, especially not the United States government. 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Commissar SFLUFAN Posted October 14, 2023 Share Posted October 14, 2023 U.S. officials privately warn Israel to show restraint in retaliating against Hamas WWW.NBCNEWS.COM In meetings in Israel, U.S. Defense Secretary Lloyd Austin conveyed to Israeli leaders that it’s important to observe international rules of warfare. Quote As Israel girds for a fearsome ground assault into Gaza, senior Biden administration officials are warning their Israeli counterparts to show restraint and avoid mass civilian casualties and a humanitarian disaster that could turn world opinion against the Jewish state, according to two current and one former U.S. official. Quote Now, Biden administration officials are amplifying that cautionary note in their own private talks with Israeli counterparts, present and past U.S. officials said. In meetings in Israel on Friday, U.S. Defense Secretary Lloyd Austin conveyed to both Netanyahu and Defense Minister Yoav Gallant that it's important to observe international rules of warfare, two current U.S. officials familiar with Austin's message said. Austin advised that Israel operate on a higher moral plane than Hamas and be careful to avoid civilian casualties, they added. Austin conveyed to the Israelis that if they storm into Gaza and civilian casualties spike, the world’s focus could shift from Hamas’ abuses to the deaths resulting from the Israeli incursion, a current and former official said. “We’re trying to convince them [the Israelis], but emotions are running high,” the former official said. Quote Over the years, past presidents have on occasion urged Israel to hold back in skirmishes with Hamas lest civilian deaths reach unacceptable levels. In 2014, for example, the Obama administration prevailed on Israel to de-escalate a conflict over rocket attacks coming from Gaza. Biden may need to have a similar conversation with Netanyahu as the war unfolds, Middle East experts said. “Rest assured, there will come a time when the administration — in response to an exponential rise in Palestinian casualties, and perhaps an Israel operation that appeared bogged down — when the Biden administration will intercede,” said Aaron David Miller, senior fellow at the Carnegie Endowment for International Peace and a former Middle East analyst at the State Department. Biden, he added, may need to have a blunt “come to Moses, Muhammad and Jesus conversation with the prime minister,” getting him to show restraint. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Massdriver Posted October 14, 2023 Share Posted October 14, 2023 46 minutes ago, Commissar SFLUFAN said: I certainly enjoyed both of his books immensely. I'm in agreement that it's very difficult for those "on the ground" to effectively navigate the "moral maze", but that's where "responsible" external parties engage to facilitate that difficult -- if not seemingly impossible-- navigation. Unfortunately, there are none of those in this conflict, especially not the United States government. I read both of his books right after Guns, Germs, and Steel. I haven’t watched the video yet but will check it out later. I’m glad the Biden admin is privately urging restraint. They’re absolutely correct that the focus will rapidly shift as Israel takes things too far. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Commissar SFLUFAN Posted October 14, 2023 Share Posted October 14, 2023 27 minutes ago, Massdriver said: I’m glad the Biden admin is privately urging restraint. They’re absolutely correct that the focus will rapidly shift as Israel takes things too far. Personally, I'd say that the focus has already significantly shifted from the pogrom in Israel to the ethnic cleansing in Gaza. Let's take a look at another eye-opening editorial about Netanyahu's "relationship" with Hamas: For years, Netanyahu propped up Hamas. Now it’s blown up in our faces WWW.TIMESOFISRAEL.COM The premier's policy of treating the terror group as a partner, at the expense of Abbas and Palestinian statehood, has resulted in wounds that will take Israel years to heal from Quote For years, the various governments led by Benjamin Netanyahu took an approach that divided power between the Gaza Strip and the West Bank — bringing Palestinian Authority President Mahmoud Abbas to his knees while making moves that propped up the Hamas terror group. The idea was to prevent Abbas — or anyone else in the Palestinian Authority’s West Bank government — from advancing toward the establishment of a Palestinian state. Thus, amid this bid to impair Abbas, Hamas was upgraded from a mere terror group to an organization with which Israel held indirect negotiations via Egypt, and one that was allowed to receive infusions of cash from abroad. Quote Meanwhile, Israel has allowed suitcases holding millions in Qatari cash to enter Gaza through its crossings since 2018, in order to maintain its fragile ceasefire with the Hamas rulers of the Strip. Quote Most of the time, Israeli policy was to treat the Palestinian Authority as a burden and Hamas as an asset. Far-right MK Bezalel Smotrich, now the finance minister in the hardline government and leader of the Religious Zionism party, said so himself in 2015. According to various reports, Netanyahu made a similar point at a Likud faction meeting in early 2019, when he was quoted as saying that those who oppose a Palestinian state should support the transfer of funds to Gaza, because maintaining the separation between the Palestinian Authority in the West Bank and Hamas in Gaza would prevent the establishment of a Palestinian state. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TUFKAK Posted October 14, 2023 Share Posted October 14, 2023 Yeah, even if true that makes this worse Everyone is ignoring the human element here and humans are the ones who pull triggers. The ones who issue orders. But let’s keep the focus on policy. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SuperSpreader Posted October 14, 2023 Share Posted October 14, 2023 1 hour ago, Commissar SFLUFAN said: Personally, I'd say that the focus has already significantly shifted from the pogrom in Israel to the ethnic cleansing in Gaza. Let's take a look at another eye-opening editorial about Netanyahu's "relationship" with Hamas: For years, Netanyahu propped up Hamas. Now it’s blown up in our faces WWW.TIMESOFISRAEL.COM The premier's policy of treating the terror group as a partner, at the expense of Abbas and Palestinian statehood, has resulted in wounds that will take Israel years to heal from Sounds like American foreign policy Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Air_Delivery Posted October 14, 2023 Share Posted October 14, 2023 I was cruising channels when I saw Inside Edition showing pictures of terror in Gaza played to the music of "Imagine". Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nokra Posted October 14, 2023 Share Posted October 14, 2023 6 hours ago, Commissar SFLUFAN said: I certainly enjoyed both of his books immensely. I'm in agreement that it's very difficult for those "on the ground" to effectively navigate the "moral maze", but that's where "responsible" external parties engage to facilitate that difficult -- if not seemingly impossible-- navigation. Unfortunately, there are none of those in this conflict, especially not the United States government. 5 hours ago, Massdriver said: I read both of his books right after Guns, Germs, and Steel. I haven’t watched the video yet but will check it out later. I’m glad the Biden admin is privately urging restraint. They’re absolutely correct that the focus will rapidly shift as Israel takes things too far. You both mentioned "both of his books" but he has three: Sapiens: A Brief History of Humankind (2011) Homo Deus: A History of Tomorrow (2015) 21 Lessons for the 21st Century (2018) They all seemed right up my alley so I bought them all but haven't read a single one yet. Anyway just thought you two might want to know, if you didn't already, that he has another book and it has received similarly good ratings/reviews. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nokra Posted October 14, 2023 Share Posted October 14, 2023 Also, this is Harari's WaPo opinion article mentioned in the CNN interview, for anyone curious. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
osxmatt Posted October 14, 2023 Share Posted October 14, 2023 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Commissar SFLUFAN Posted October 14, 2023 Share Posted October 14, 2023 Israel's 6 hours-long window for Gazans to "evacuate" Gaza City using specific streets has closed. Israel's 6-hour window for Palestinians to flee Gaza City has ended. Quote A six-hour window issued by the Israeli military warning Palestinian civilians to finish evacuating from Gaza City to the southern part of the strip ended at 4 p.m. local time (9 a.m. ET) on Saturday. The Israel Defense Forces (IDF) told residents to move toward the Gaza Valley, in a message posted on X, formerly known as Twitter. It is unclear how widely the messaging has been received on the ground given the current electricity and internet blackout. The advisory from the Israeli military came a day after it told 1.1 million people living in northern Gaza to evacuate their homes. The IDF has saturated the border with troops and military equipment amid a relentless onslaught on the territory, in retaliation to a large-scale incursion by the militant group Hamas on October 7. Earlier on Saturday, IDF spokesperson Lt. Col. Richard Hecht said Israel's air, land and sea blockade on Gaza will continue into a seventh day. “We are preparing for the next stages," he added, but shared no information if that could be a ground incursion and when. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Commissar SFLUFAN Posted October 14, 2023 Share Posted October 14, 2023 As Israel Readies Gaza Invasion, US Sees No Plan for What’s Next (Bloomberg) Quote President Joe Biden has promised unconditional support for Israel as it gears up for a ground war in the Gaza Strip. But his administration is worried that the Israeli government isn’t ready for the fallout from the massive invasion that could come at any hour. People familiar with the Biden administration’s stance say the White House fears that Israel doesn’t have a plan for what comes next for Gaza after an invasion, and is pressing them to think beyond the immediate goal of eradicating Hamas. They asked not to be identified discussing private deliberations. The people said Biden’s team has also voiced anxiety about Israel’s demand that residents evacuate northern Gaza in 24 hours, a deadline that both the EU and UN say is unrealistic. Soon after Israel made the demand, National Security Council spokesman John Kirby acknowledged an evacuation in Gaza would be “a tall order.” The desire to support Israel versus the fear about what might come next underscores the delicate balancing act Biden faces. A punishing campaign in Gaza and no clear endpoint risks fanning Israel’s worst crisis in 50 years in to a regional conflagration the US and its allies would struggle to contain. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
osxmatt Posted October 14, 2023 Share Posted October 14, 2023 I’m surprised it took this long for GOP to make this connection Quote Campaigning for the GOP presidential nomination Saturday in Iowa, Florida Gov. Ron DeSantis (R) said the United States should not accept refugees from Gaza, alleging that its residents are “all antisemitic.” “If you look at how they behave, not all of them are Hamas, but they are all antisemitic,” he said, referencing the Gaza-based militant group whose deadly attack in Israel last week triggered war. “None of them believe in Israel’s right to exist. … The Arab states should be taking them if you have refugees. You don’t fly people and import them into the United States of America.” DeSantis has also used Hamas’s attacks as an opportunity to press for further restrictions at the U.S. southern border and reiterated that idea Saturday at his campaign stop in Creston, Iowa, speculating that “there will be a terrorist attack in this country that we’ll be able to link to that southern border.” Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TUFKAK Posted October 14, 2023 Share Posted October 14, 2023 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SuperSpreader Posted October 14, 2023 Share Posted October 14, 2023 3 hours ago, osxmatt said: I’m surprised it took this long for GOP to make this connection Yes insult our No 1 trading partner. International Trade WWW.CENSUS.GOV Totally the same relationship between Israel and Hamas. 🙄 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Spork3245 Posted October 14, 2023 Share Posted October 14, 2023 https://www.axios.com/2023/10/14/iran-warning-israel-hezbollah-hamas-war-gaza Quote Iran sent a message to Israel on Saturday stressing that it does not want further escalation in the Hamas-Israel war, but that it will have to intervene if the Israeli operation in Gaza continues, two diplomatic sources with knowledge of the situation told Axios. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TUFKAK Posted October 14, 2023 Share Posted October 14, 2023 Bold with two carrier task forces and a royal navy group off shore. Iran really trying to lose bad. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SuperSpreader Posted October 14, 2023 Share Posted October 14, 2023 56 minutes ago, Spork3245 said: https://www.axios.com/2023/10/14/iran-warning-israel-hezbollah-hamas-war-gaza Lots of talk for a terrorist state Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SuperSpreader Posted October 14, 2023 Share Posted October 14, 2023 42 minutes ago, TUFKAK said: Bold with two carrier task forces and a royal navy group off shore. Iran really trying to lose bad. Iran getting smashed would be a huge win for Saudi Arabia Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Spork3245 Posted October 14, 2023 Share Posted October 14, 2023 42 minutes ago, TUFKAK said: Bold with two carrier task forces and a royal navy group off shore. Iran really trying to lose bad. Yea, I laughed when I saw the headline: I call bullshit on that threat. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SuperSpreader Posted October 14, 2023 Share Posted October 14, 2023 Just now, Spork3245 said: Yea, I laughed when I saw the headline: I call bullshit on that threat. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
osxmatt Posted October 14, 2023 Share Posted October 14, 2023 Quote At least 2,215 Palestinians have been killed in Gaza from Israeli strikes, the Palestinian Ministry of Health said in an update Saturday. That toll includes 724 children. 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jwheel86 Posted October 14, 2023 Author Share Posted October 14, 2023 51 minutes ago, TUFKAK said: Bold with two carrier task forces and a royal navy group off shore. Iran really trying to lose bad. I'm very surprised the Gulf isn't being beefed up. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Commissar SFLUFAN Posted October 15, 2023 Share Posted October 15, 2023 44 minutes ago, osxmatt said: Make no mistake: that's almost assuredly a significant undercount. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Commissar SFLUFAN Posted October 15, 2023 Share Posted October 15, 2023 43 minutes ago, Jwheel86 said: I'm very surprised the Gulf isn't being beefed up. No reason to do so when any Iranian/Iranian proxy attack would originate from Lebanon and/or Syria. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Commissar SFLUFAN Posted October 15, 2023 Share Posted October 15, 2023 The Israelis just hit the airport in Aleppo, Syria again. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CayceG Posted October 15, 2023 Share Posted October 15, 2023 1 hour ago, Commissar SFLUFAN said: The Israelis just hit the airport in Aleppo, Syria again. Sure, why not. Israel has too many bombs for how small Gaza is, I guess. This is all so stupid. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Commissar SFLUFAN Posted October 15, 2023 Share Posted October 15, 2023 Strike on civilian convoy fleeing Gaza: What we know from verified video WWW.BBC.COM Women and children were killed in Friday's strike on vehicles that were heading away from northern Gaza. Quote Reports first emerged on Friday evening of a strike on a convoy of vehicles heading towards southern Gaza. These vehicles were carrying civilians, who were fleeing northern Gaza after the Israel Defense Forces (IDF) issued an evacuation order. Videos showing the carnage at the scene emerged shortly afterwards. BBC Verify has confirmed the strike occurred on Salah-al-Din street, which is one of two evacuation routes from northern Gaza to the south. Quote What does the footage show? The longest video we have verified is too graphic for us to show. It's a scene of total carnage. Men are seen running towards a truck yelling prayers and laments into the smoke-filled air. Sirens and car alarms howl throughout. As the camera moves closer to the truck, the extent of the devastation becomes clear. Bodies, twisted and mangled, are scattered everywhere. Later, the broken body of a small child - a boy, dressed in shorts and a T-shirt - is seen lying on the truck, his head twisted awkwardly towards the camera. We counted at least 12 dead bodies among the wreckage. They are mostly women and children - some of whom appear to be as young as two to five years old. Other footage shows the bodies of victims lying in the street. Vehicles are seen burning, likely with their drivers and passengers still inside. Quote Verifying the aftermath A number of videos have now emerged on social media showing the immediate aftermath of the strike. Local media reports said the attack took place on Salah al-Din road, a major highway that runs north to south across the strip, and one of just two evacuation routes for civilians living in the north. The road was full of traffic all day on Friday as Gazans based in the north adhered to Israeli warnings to vacate the area. We began by verifying the first video, that shows the devastating aftermath of the attack. We focused our attention on this 45km-stretch (28 miles) of road, beginning with the north, as that was where the convoy was likely to have set off from. 4 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TUFKAK Posted October 15, 2023 Share Posted October 15, 2023 Damn it all. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Signifyin(g)Monkey Posted October 15, 2023 Share Posted October 15, 2023 Very much like Ukraine, the information warfare aspect of this conflict is going to be interesting. (and horrifying and depressing, etc.). Biden’s already on record citing a story about Palestinian militants beheading children that was completely manufactured. Western society is totally not ready for social media to be weaponized as an organ of war propaganda on a mass scale…and it already is… Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ricofoley Posted October 15, 2023 Share Posted October 15, 2023 Reportedly the water is back on in southern Gaza. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jason Posted October 15, 2023 Share Posted October 15, 2023 Just now, Ricofoley said: Reportedly the water is back on in southern Gaza. No power for the water pumps though. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Commissar SFLUFAN Posted October 15, 2023 Share Posted October 15, 2023 4 minutes ago, Ricofoley said: Reportedly the water is back on in southern Gaza. 3 minutes ago, Jason said: No power for the water pumps though. Renewed water supply to parts of south Gaza agreed with Biden -Israeli minister | Reuters WWW.REUTERS.COM Israel's Energy Minister said on Sunday that a decision to renew water supplies to parts of southern Gaza was agreed on between Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu and U.S. President Joe Biden. Quote Israel's Energy Minister said on Sunday that a decision to renew water supplies to parts of southern Gaza was agreed on between Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu and U.S. President Joe Biden. Energy Minister Israel Katz said that the decision to partially renew water supplies was in line with Israeli policy, which is to tighten a blockade on the Hamas-ruled territory. 1 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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