Spork3245 Posted June 10 Share Posted June 10 2 hours ago, LazyPiranha said: Not for nothing but… Israel alleges journalist held hostages in Gaza, without providing evidence | CNN AMP.CNN.COM Three hostages rescued during a deadly Israeli military operation on the Nuseirat camp in central Gaza were held captive by a journalist, the Israel Defense Forces (IDF)... Given Israel’s nebulous relationship with the truth lately, I’m going to wait for actual confirmation before I go along with a story that conveniently wraps a bow on a bunch of their recent misdeeds. I hate to bite on this, but I’m genuinely curious: which parts do you not believe/need more evidence for: that the hostages were being held in a civilian building, the death toll (which that article questions), that it was this journalist who was holding them, that the journalist worked with Al Jazeera, something else, or all of it? Also, and I’m genuinely asking, what evidence, exactly, are you looking for that will satisfy you and how can it be provided in a way that would be believable for you? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SuperSpreader Posted June 10 Share Posted June 10 I could see a scenario where he, himself, didn't choose to have the hostages held there. That they were under Hamas supervision, but he allowed it OR turned a blind eye the same way businesses/individuals supported the Chicago Mafia or how a Cartel operates in Mexico. ("That's our life, that's what you have to do for survive." / "It's our culture.") But if that's the case and he continued to write Hamas friendly propaganda, that just makes him an agent of propaganda? (Again, "well what is he supposed to do, he needs to make a living." I get it, from drone strikes to destroying environmental regulation, aren't we all.) Spoiler For some reason this "spoiler" won't delete on mobile. 😭 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Spork3245 Posted June 10 Share Posted June 10 Just now, SuperSpreader said: I could see a scenario where he, himself, didn't choose to have the hostages held there. That they were under Hamas supervision, but he allowed it OR turned a blind eye the same way businesses/individuals supported the Chicago Mafia or how a Cartel operates in Mexico. ("That's our life, that's what you have to do for survive." / "It's our culture.") But if that's the case and he continued to write Hamas friendly propaganda, that just makes him an agent of propaganda? (Again, "well what is he supposed to do, he needs to make a living." I get it, from drone strikes to destroying environmental regulation, aren't we all.) Hide contents For some reason this "spoiler" won't delete on mobile. 😭 That spoiler blew my mind. No notes. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SuperSpreader Posted June 10 Share Posted June 10 Just now, Spork3245 said: That spoiler blew my mind. No notes. I have revealed the darkest secrets of the universe now. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Spork3245 Posted June 10 Share Posted June 10 There’s a thousand scenarios that could be true with this, I would certainly not suggest otherwise, but regardless, it seems as though the 3 hostages were, at the least, likely being held in a civilian building. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SuperSpreader Posted June 10 Share Posted June 10 Just now, Spork3245 said: There’s a thousand scenarios that could be true with this, I would certainly not suggest otherwise, but regardless, it seems as though the 3 hostages were, at the least, likely being held in a civilian building. Yeah. I think Hamas-friendly-media are looking for a way to throw up some smoke on that fact and make the conversation about some detail or unknown. "It's the WAY you said it not what you said." Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Spork3245 Posted June 10 Share Posted June 10 3 minutes ago, SuperSpreader said: Yeah. I think Hamas-friendly-media are looking for a way to throw up some smoke on that fact and make the conversation about some detail or unknown. "It's the WAY you said it not what you said." I mean, the post about this on r/WhitePeopleTwitter seems to have been deleted, I assume by mods, and I saw someone (probably/hopefully a bot) claim that the hostages were put/planted there by the IDF or something. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SuperSpreader Posted June 10 Share Posted June 10 2 minutes ago, Spork3245 said: I mean, the post about this on r/WhitePeopleTwitter seems to have been deleted, I assume by mods, and I saw someone (probably/hopefully a bot) claim that the hostages were put/planted there by the IDF or something. Sprinkle some hostages on it. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LazyPiranha Posted June 10 Share Posted June 10 34 minutes ago, Spork3245 said: I hate to bite on this, but I’m genuinely curious: which parts do you not believe/need more evidence for: that the hostages were being held in a civilian building, the death toll (which that article questions), that it was this journalist who was holding them, that the journalist worked with Al Jazeera, something else, or all of it? Also, and I’m genuinely asking, what evidence, exactly, are you looking for that will satisfy you and how can it be provided in a way that makes it believable? Proof specifically that the journalist they killed was actively holding hostages in his home with his family, which is the specific claim they made. That doesn’t seem unreasonable. I’m not saying it’s impossible, I’m not saying I refuse to believe it no matter what. What I’m saying is there has been a pattern of Israel claiming things and either not backing it up at all, or providing evidence that’s either painfully thin or outright bullshit. I don’t know what you think of me, but I have no sympathy for Hamas or feel that anything they have done is good, justified, or anything in between. At the same time, I don’t think the fact that your enemy does evil things means you get a pass on anything else you do. If you’ve been caught many times coming up with the flimsiest pretenses for the shit you’ve done, you don’t get to act indignant when people raise an eyebrow at your latest claim made with zero evidence. I’m just saying at a time when Israel is facing a ton of heat for civilians casualties, attacks on civilian areas, and for killing a shocking amount of journalists, it’s awfully convenient that the hostages they just killed dozens of people to rescue were in a civilian home of a journalist. Could it be true? Absolutely. But you’d think that before you made such an announcement that you’d actually have some proof to go along with it. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Spork3245 Posted June 10 Share Posted June 10 20 minutes ago, LazyPiranha said: Proof specifically that the journalist they killed was actively holding hostages in his home with his family, which is the specific claim they made. That doesn’t seem unreasonable. What I’m asking is how would they provide proof of that, what exactly constitutes as proof of that, and how can it be provided in a way that cannot be painted as “Israel is lying”? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LazyPiranha Posted June 10 Share Posted June 10 40 minutes ago, Spork3245 said: What I’m asking is how would they provide proof of that, what exactly constitutes as proof of that, and how can it be provided in a way that cannot be painted as “Israel is lying”? Can I sit here and provide you with an exhaustive matrix of information and the weighted average for each of them? No. It’s somewhere above “take our word for it” and somewhere below three sworn affidavits of eyewitness accounts from direct friends and family of me personally. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Spork3245 Posted June 10 Share Posted June 10 31 minutes ago, LazyPiranha said: Can I sit here and provide you with an exhaustive matrix of information and the weighted average for each of them? No. It’s somewhere above “take our word for it” and somewhere below three sworn affidavits of eyewitness accounts from direct friends and family of me personally. That's kind of it, though, right? There's not really any evidence that can be provided that will actually satisfy. If the guy took a selfie with the hostages with his family, it would just be "photoshop!" by many. So, the thought of "I want more evidence" isn't a bad one, however, you gotta think, what kind of evidence would actually be satisfactory, and what kind of evidence couldn't just be claimed as "being created" by Israel? I don't feel as though this is an unfair question to ask or statement to make. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GeneticBlueprint Posted June 10 Share Posted June 10 I suppose we could start with what do the hostages have to say about him? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Spork3245 Posted June 10 Share Posted June 10 2 minutes ago, GeneticBlueprint said: I suppose we could start with what do the hostages have to say about him? Sure, however, what if they were "told to say these things about him"? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GeneticBlueprint Posted June 10 Share Posted June 10 1 minute ago, Spork3245 said: Sure, however, what if they were "told to say these things about him"? I won't speak for others, but I do agree with LP on being skeptical of Israeli government claims. The same skepticism, for me at any rate, does not extend to a conspiracy involving making sure every single one of the hostages sticks to a story. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Spork3245 Posted June 10 Share Posted June 10 2 minutes ago, GeneticBlueprint said: I won't speak for others, but I do agree with LP on being skeptical of Israeli government claims. The same skepticism, for me at any rate, does not extend to a conspiracy involving making sure every single one of the hostages sticks to a story. I'm not questioning being skeptical of claims, I'm questioning what type of evidence is actually satisfactory and how can that be provided in a way that isn't just "more lying"? As far as I'm concerned, we'll never have anything like that. From either side. For any claim. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GeneticBlueprint Posted June 10 Share Posted June 10 1 minute ago, Spork3245 said: I'm not questioning being skeptical of claims, I'm questioning what type of evidence is actually satisfactory and how can that be provided in a way that isn't just "more lying"? Well, I just said the start for me is believing the victims. Handfuls of accounts from different people--Israeli, Palestinian, combatants, non-combatants--in different situations can start to paint a picture. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sblfilms Posted June 10 Share Posted June 10 Me looking for the times that @LazyPiranha questioned claims of Hamas about literally anything Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Spork3245 Posted June 10 Share Posted June 10 14 minutes ago, GeneticBlueprint said: Well, I just said the start for me is believing the victims. Handfuls of accounts from different people--Israeli, Palestinian, combatants, non-combatants--in different situations can start to paint a picture. It's great if you have a way that you would believe the claim, but is it a start to believe it, or do you then believe it in that circumstance? I think it's unlikely to put these hostages in a situation like that with what they have already gone through (plus, it's highly likely they had bags over their heads and/or were blindfolded most of the time as to not be able to identify any Hamas agents), though it's at least possible (but I don't believe it would satisfy most; but, again, I'm glad it would satisfy you personally (that's genuine, not sarcasm btw)). I also highly doubt you'll have any non-Israeli Palestinian corroborating that this guy was Hamas (which would also include any non-combatants) as they would be killed by Hamas for stating as such. So, yea, again, on the surface, questioning it is fine, but I don't see any likely way of providing evidence that would satisfy most people in a way that just won't be painted as "more lies". Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TUFKAK Posted June 10 Share Posted June 10 5 minutes ago, sblfilms said: Me looking for the times that @LazyPiranha questioned claims of Hamas about literally anything Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GeneticBlueprint Posted June 10 Share Posted June 10 Just now, Spork3245 said: It's great if you have a way that you would believe the claim, but is it a start to believing it, or do you then believe it in that circumstance? I think it's unlikely to put these hostages in a situation like that with what they have already gone through (plus, it's highly likely they had bags over their heads and/or were blindfolded most of the time as to not be able to identify any Hamas agents), though it's at least possible (but wouldn't satisfy most; but, again, I'm glad it would satisfy you personally (that's genuine, not sarcasm btw). I also highly doubt you'll have any non-Israeli Palestinian corroborating that this guy was Hamas (which would also include any non-combatants) as they would be killed by Hamas for stating as such. So, yea, again, on the surface, questioning it is fine, but I don't see any likely way of providing evidence that would satisfy most people in a way that just won't be painted as "more lies". The fog of war certainly does not help in these situations. Which is why I default to believing victims (Israeli or Palestinian). That's my baseline. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sblfilms Posted June 10 Share Posted June 10 70%+ of Gazans support what Hamas did on 10/7, why would there be any doubt that civilians would participate in the holding of hostages? It would be more strange if that weren’t the case. It is the same thing with the rejection of claims of sexual violence. Show me a war with no sexual violence. None exist, yet people keep on like it is unfathomable that Hamas militants would do such a thing. It is fair to question any government when they make a claim, but people are acting like these Israeli claims are extraordinary in some way. 1 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Spork3245 Posted June 10 Share Posted June 10 4 minutes ago, sblfilms said: 70%+ of Gazans support what Hamas did on 10/7, why would there be any doubt that civilians would participate in the holding of hostages? It would be more strange if that weren’t the case. It is the same thing with the rejection of claims of sexual violence. Show me a war with no sexual violence. None exist, yet people keep on like it is unfathomable that Hamas militants would do such a thing. It is fair to question any government when they make a claim, but people are acting like these Israeli claims are extraordinary in some way. Not to mention the amount of people who seem to believe that these hostages don't actually exist being "way more people than it should be". Though, to be clear, that thankfully doesn't seem to be the thoughts for anyone here. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bacon Posted June 10 Share Posted June 10 I will once again be voting for Biden in an attempt to block Trump. Not that it matters since lol WV. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LazyPiranha Posted June 10 Share Posted June 10 37 minutes ago, sblfilms said: Me looking for the times that @LazyPiranha questioned claims of Hamas about literally anything Name a time I’ve said anything even vaguely supportive of Hamas or posted a claim made by Hamas uncritically or at all. I don’t post claims by Hamas because, get this, I automatically assume they’re horeshit. If I am critical of something done by either Israel or the IDF, it’s not because I’m taking Hamas at their word over it, but because other news or international orgs have done their homework over it. What even is the point of this argument? Someone asks me what proof I would accept and I say I don’t know but perhaps some proof at all, and Spork just throws up his hands and claims no amount of proof will change my mind. What? If I tell you your wife is cheating on you, you might reasonably expect me to back that up with something. I can’t just decide nothing will ever convince you because you can’t articulate exactly how many pictures in what quality showing what scenes will tip the scales. So yes, shock of all shocks, I hold Israel and the IDF to higher standards than fucking Hamas. I don’t blanket accept everything they say because they have been proven to be, at best, shockingly incompetent when it comes to telling the truth at times during this whole thing. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Spork3245 Posted June 10 Share Posted June 10 7 minutes ago, LazyPiranha said: and Spork just throws up his hands and claims no amount of proof will change my mind. What? Yea, no, I never said that. I genuinely asked what proof you would want and what proof couldn't just be listed as "lies", and you've yet to tell me. You've read way too much into my question. Also, that entire tirade there was ungodly disingenuous, at best. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Spork3245 Posted June 10 Share Posted June 10 If your response wasn't some vague nonsense about weighted averages and a family member with an affidavit and was an actual answer like @GeneticBlueprint provided I would've said the same to you as I did to him, that I'm glad there's a level of proof you would personally believe, despite me feeling as though that proof would be unlikely to appear. However, you won't provide even a basic answer, so what exactly do you want from me? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LazyPiranha Posted June 10 Share Posted June 10 5 minutes ago, Spork3245 said: Yea, no, I never said that. I genuinely asked what proof you would want and what proof couldn't just be listed as "lies", and you've yet to tell me. You've read way too much into my question. Also, that entire tirade there was ungodly disingenuous, at best. How can I give you a concrete definition of proof for a situation when I don’t have one? I cannot exhaustively list what I would accept unless you want to be as vague as just saying independent verification from a trustworthy source such as independent journalism or an international organization. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Spork3245 Posted June 10 Share Posted June 10 Just now, LazyPiranha said: How can I give you a concrete definition of proof for a situation when I don’t have one? Because you stated that you wanted more proof, so I asked "what evidence, exactly, are you looking for that will satisfy you and how can it be provided in a way that makes it believable?" To quote myself: 1 hour ago, Spork3245 said: the thought of "I want more evidence" isn't a bad one, however, you gotta think, what kind of evidence would actually be satisfactory, and what kind of evidence couldn't just be claimed as "being created" by Israel? 3 minutes ago, LazyPiranha said: be as vague as just saying independent verification from a trustworthy source such as independent journalism or an international organization. I honestly don't know how an independent organization can verify this specific thing. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LazyPiranha Posted June 10 Share Posted June 10 13 minutes ago, Spork3245 said: Because you stated that you wanted more proof, so I asked "what evidence, exactly, are you looking for that will satisfy you and how can it be provided in a way that makes it believable?" To quote myself: I honestly don't know how an independent organization can verify this specific thing. Hell if I know either, hence the vague answer. I don’t know what answer people want or expect where I somehow won’t end up getting accused of carrying water for Hamas. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bacon Posted June 10 Share Posted June 10 hardly anyone ever really wants proof 1 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Spork3245 Posted June 10 Share Posted June 10 4 minutes ago, LazyPiranha said: I don’t know what answer people want or expect where I somehow won’t end up getting accused of carrying water for Hamas. I've never accused you of that afaik, and I certainly didn't accuse GB of that when he gave an answer of what he'd like to see. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
b_m_b_m_b_m Posted June 10 Share Posted June 10 21 minutes ago, Bacon said: hardly anyone ever really wants proof Everyone wants the headline Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SuperSpreader Posted June 10 Share Posted June 10 9 hours ago, SuperSpreader said: "It's the WAY you said it not what you said." This is the part of this discussion we're on now. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TUFKAK Posted June 10 Share Posted June 10 Hamas can be trusted Israel can’t the end Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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