crispy4000 Posted September 9, 2023 Share Posted September 9, 2023 53 minutes ago, SaysWho? said: Are those "deaths" tragic, then? Is something wrong with the female body where this is commonplace and not rare? All death of human beings is tragic on some level. I feel stronger about intentional killing rising to another level than nature running its course. But no, nothing wrong with the woman. 53 minutes ago, SaysWho? said: But I don't think that's what he's asking. "I'm glad I wasn't aborted." "I'm glad nobody intervened in the rape." Both lead to the person being born. If I stop a rape from happening, have I then stopped a life from forming? Stopping the rape would be the best outcome. I don’t consider it a harm to the non-existent human to never be conceived. Harm can only come to those who are real. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GeneticBlueprint Posted September 9, 2023 Share Posted September 9, 2023 6 minutes ago, SaysWho? said: Are those "deaths" tragic, then? Is something wrong with the female body where this is commonplace and not rare? Because an abortion pretty much does what the female body already does frequently, but we're saying she can't make that decision herself in the early stages of pregnancy. This is what I was alluding to earlier. Tons of outrage over abortion but not a single tear shed or law written to address all the fetuses and fertilized eggs that die on their own. Almost as if it’s not about death but controlling women’s choices. 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Massdriver Posted September 9, 2023 Share Posted September 9, 2023 1 hour ago, crispy4000 said: It’s a simple premise, and a good one to generally operate from. But it’s clearly not an absolute. Where we cross the boundary to saying killing other humans is okay in select contexts should take solid arguments. It’s either that, or we just shouldn’t treat any human life as important. I personally don’t think the arguments used to justify abortion from a developmental, cognitive or experiential angle hold up to scrutiny when tested. Why that particular boundary and not another? Is it because we have our own biases towards what we are at present? What does that say about humans not able like us? I don’t find your genetic angle convincing and it hasn’t held up to basic logic. You must have been bored to argue for your pro life position itt. Edit: If what makes a human being have moral worth is our genetic sequence, then animals have no value at all, nor would any other homo genus if they were alive. Torturing dogs and cats is fine. Abusing all animals is fine. It would was perfectly cool to enslave and rape Neanderthals. If an intelligent alien race were encountered, we can do whatever we want because they don’t have human genetics. These are the consequences to rejecting all the properties that would be more applicable to other beings, the ones you say don’t hold up to scrutiny. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kal-El814 Posted September 9, 2023 Share Posted September 9, 2023 44 minutes ago, crispy4000 said: I personally don’t think the arguments used to justify abortion from a developmental, cognitive or experiential angle hold up to scrutiny when tested. Why that particular boundary and not another? Is it because we have our own biases towards what we are at present? What does that say about humans not able like us? I wanna preface what I'm about to say with the notion that I know people who have raised children with severe developmental disabilities or conditions that will challenge them throughout their lives, shorten their lives, etc. I know from my own conversations with them that my word choice is sometimes imperfect and my intent / feelings don't come off the right way. I do not think people in those circumstances have lives with value that is any different than anyone else's. But to get back to my previous point, it is simply not realistic to expect that everyone engaging in sexual activity even if it is done with the intent to start a pregnancy, is capable of accounting for every possible developmental outcome. It is not reasonable to expect that someone who realizes they are pregnant with circumstances that will not allow them to raise that child to carry it to term, birth it, and put it up for adoption. I appreciate that the concern here drifts into something potentially adjacent to eugenics, but I do not think it does that any more than non-abortion solutions to the same problem, which would be doing things to ensure that only people with means, people less likely to encounter those developmental issues, etc., are the ones having children. 1 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
legend Posted September 9, 2023 Share Posted September 9, 2023 4 hours ago, crispy4000 said: It’s a simple premise, and a good one to generally operate from. But it’s clearly not an absolute. Where we cross the boundary to saying killing other humans is okay in select contexts should take solid arguments. It’s either that, or we just shouldn’t treat any human life as important. It's fine to have heuristics in life. But then you need to acknowledge them as heuristics and you absolutely shouldn't base an argument for a position by abusively applying the heuristic well beyond edge cases by equivocating with terms. You say you're open the arguments against why otherwise, which sounds great, except there are mountains of text out there on all the terrible consequences of not allowing abortion. I can't imagine you've never heard them, yet you still cling to this overly simplistic badly applied heuristic all the same. 4 hours ago, crispy4000 said: I personally don’t think the arguments used to justify abortion from a developmental, cognitive or experiential angle hold up to scrutiny when tested. Why that particular boundary and not another? Is it because we have our own biases towards what we are at present? Sharp decision boundaries do not imply sharp value differences. Suppose I have two investment options. Choice A will yield $100 in a year and choice B will yield $101. There is a very clear sharp decision boundary about which to prefer: choice B. That there is a sharp decision boundary doesn't mean the value differences are sharp because it's only a $1 difference. And if choice A's return rises to $101.01 the best choice will "suddenly" switch to choice A, but they are still roughly equal in value and I'm not going to lose sleep over choosing the wrong one. W.r.t. abortion, if someone has an abortion 1 day after where I would draw the line due to cognitive development, that doesn't make the abortion somehow totally horrible in comparison to 1 day earlier, because the value difference can smoothly change even though the preference switches and I most certainly wouldn't seek punishment for anyone involved because of that. Similarly, other contexts and costs also factor in on where someone would draw that line. Most pro-choice advocates do have a line where they don't think it's proper to always allow abortion, but then will still make exceptions quite late into pregnancy if the mother's life is at risk and doubly so when the mother's life is at risk and child is not expected to live. The fact that situations are messy like this is also a good reason for the government to minimize their involvement in disallowing it, possibly not being involved at all. Quote What does that say about humans not able like us? Nothing at all. The cognitive difference between less abled fully developed people and a fetus is fucking staggering. It's weird and maybe even insulting to less abled people to even bring that up as a comparison. 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jwheel86 Posted September 10, 2023 Share Posted September 10, 2023 2 hours ago, crispy4000 said: It’s a simple premise, and a good one to generally operate from. But it’s clearly not an absolute. Where we cross the boundary to saying killing other humans is okay in select contexts should take solid arguments. It’s either that, or we just shouldn’t treat any human life as important. I would contend that society actually doesn't care about human life at any stage and that abortion is an easy way to fake caring. You can say pro lifers care about other issues like healthcare, but they put zero energy into it. Instead they focus on the most controversial stage of "life" where there will never be broad agreement. Imagine if the Christian Right put that same energy into healthcare reform, or the child welfare system, or disability services, etc and etc, an area where they could get broad agreement and make progress to save lives. 6 1 1 1 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CastlevaniaNut18 Posted September 10, 2023 Share Posted September 10, 2023 5 minutes ago, Jwheel86 said: I would contend that society actually doesn't care about human life at any stage and that abortion is an easy way to fake caring. You can say pro lifers care about other issues like healthcare, but they put zero energy into it. Instead they focus on the most controversial stage of "life" where there will never be broad agreement. Imagine if the Christian Right put that same energy into healthcare reform, or the child welfare system, or disability services, etc and etc, an area where they could get broad agreement and make progress to save lives. I stole this quote because it just really hit me hard. Hope that's okay. Imagine indeed. 1 1 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jwheel86 Posted September 10, 2023 Share Posted September 10, 2023 57 minutes ago, legend said: Similarly, other contexts and costs also factor in on where someone would draw that line. Most pro-choice advocates do have a line where they don't think it's proper to always allow abortion, but then will still make exceptions quite late into pregnancy if the mother's life is at risk and doubly so when the mother's life is at risk and child is not expected to live. The fact that situations are messy like this is also a good reason for the government to minimize their involvement in disallowing it, possibly not being involved at all. Also attempts to use those personally defined lines to negotiate a compromise with the pro life movement is pointless because they'll always chase the maximalist position. Texas has a near total ban, good enough? Nope. Texas highways targeted by antiabortion activists seeking to block interstate travel - The Washington Post WWW.WASHINGTONPOST.COM A new ordinance, passed in several jurisdictions and under consideration elsewhere, aims to stop people from using local roads to drive someone out of state for an abortion Quote ...make it illegal to transport anyone to get an abortion on roads within the city or county limits. The laws allow any private citizen to sue a person or organization they suspect of violating the ordinance. Antiabortion advocates behind the measure are targeting regions along interstates and in areas with airports, with the goal of blocking off the main arteries out of Texas and keeping pregnant women hemmed within the confines of their antiabortion state. These provisions have already passed in two counties and two cities, creating legal risk for those traveling on major highways including Interstate 20 and Route 84, which head toward New Mexico, where abortion remains legal and new clinics have opened to accommodate Texas women. Several more jurisdictions are expected to vote on the measure in the coming weeks. “This really is building a wall to stop abortion trafficking,” said Mark Lee Dickson, the antiabortion activist behind the effort. 1 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chadatog Posted September 10, 2023 Share Posted September 10, 2023 34 minutes ago, CastlevaniaNut18 said: Imagine indeed. You are a dreamer. But not the only one. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nokra Posted September 10, 2023 Share Posted September 10, 2023 1 minute ago, Chadatog said: You are a dreamer. But not the only one. Imagine no Republicans. It's easy if you try. 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TUFKAK Posted September 10, 2023 Share Posted September 10, 2023 11 minutes ago, Nokra said: Imagine no Republicans. It's easy if you try. We call that San Francisco lol 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
marioandsonic Posted September 10, 2023 Share Posted September 10, 2023 15 minutes ago, Nokra said: Imagine no Republicans. It's easy if you try. 1 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Commissar SFLUFAN Posted September 10, 2023 Share Posted September 10, 2023 You have no idea how much I really, really despise that goddamned song. It's to the point where I'll GLADLY testify at Mark David Chapman's next parole hearing as a character witness. 2 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SaysWho? Posted September 10, 2023 Author Share Posted September 10, 2023 Imagine's a fantastic piece of music and whenever I'm in my gf's car and I see it on our favorites, I turn to it quickly. Perfection. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GeneticBlueprint Posted September 10, 2023 Share Posted September 10, 2023 23 minutes ago, Commissar SFLUFAN said: You have no idea how much I really, really despise that goddamned song. It's to the point where I'll GLADLY testify at Mark David Chapman's next parole hearing as a character witness. Imagine if the song didn’t exist. It’s easy if you try. 1 3 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Air_Delivery Posted September 10, 2023 Share Posted September 10, 2023 41 minutes ago, Commissar SFLUFAN said: You have no idea how much I really, really despise that goddamned song. It's to the point where I'll GLADLY testify at Mark David Chapman's next parole hearing as a character witness. So would celebrities singing it on repeat be your personal hell? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Commissar SFLUFAN Posted September 10, 2023 Share Posted September 10, 2023 Just now, Air_Delivery said: So would celebrities singing it on repeat be your personal hell? If I managed to get MDC released on parole, I'd immediately point him in their direction. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Keyser_Soze Posted September 10, 2023 Share Posted September 10, 2023 2 hours ago, Commissar SFLUFAN said: You have no idea how much I really, really despise that goddamned song. It's to the point where I'll GLADLY testify at Mark David Chapman's next parole hearing as a character witness. What about Give Peace a Chance? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
crispy4000 Posted September 10, 2023 Share Posted September 10, 2023 11 hours ago, Jwheel86 said: I would contend that society actually doesn't care about human life at any stage and that abortion is an easy way to fake caring. You can say pro lifers care about other issues like healthcare, but they put zero energy into it. Instead they focus on the most controversial stage of "life" where there will never be broad agreement. Imagine if the Christian Right put that same energy into healthcare reform, or the child welfare system, or disability services, etc and etc, an area where they could get broad agreement and make progress to save lives. If society truly doesn't care about human life at any stage, we would not have hospitals, schools, homeless assistance, unemployment assistance, welfare, social security, etc. I would contend that these make your first statement hyperbole. That's not to say that I think you're wrong about plenty of fake caring. Republican politicians most particularly would rather punt the responsibility to religious organizations to pick up the slack. Which is wrong on so many levels. But that shouldn't diminish the work that those orgs (and secular ones) are doing at the ground level to be proactively pro-life for struggling families. I will never write off those efforts based on mere political or religious affiliation. Most of us haven't done shit for others in need by comparison. It's too easy today for politics online to consume our energy, where debating or grandstanding largely amounts to nothing good for anyone. Maybe the rare times I step in here is too much. But yes, let's see the healthcare/welfare/disability political narrative change on the religious right. I'm all for it. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TUFKAK Posted September 10, 2023 Share Posted September 10, 2023 5 hours ago, Jwheel86 said: I would contend that society actually doesn't care about human life at any stage and that abortion is an easy way to fake caring. You can say pro lifers care about other issues like healthcare, but they put zero energy into it. Instead they focus on the most controversial stage of "life" where there will never be broad agreement. Imagine if the Christian Right put that same energy into healthcare reform, or the child welfare system, or disability services, etc and etc, an area where they could get broad agreement and make progress to save lives. That would require them to actually live for Jesus and we know they won’t. This is an easy to appear righteous while being full of shit, as we’ve seen in this thread they’ve effectively moralized rape and argue that half of our population are naught but brood mares. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fizzzzle Posted September 10, 2023 Share Posted September 10, 2023 It makes me glad that other people have come around to "if you are against abortion in any case, you should be against it in every case." I've been saying that for damn near a decade and I used to get flamed for it. If abortion is murder, then the child being a product of rape doesn't make it any less murder. You can't just say "murder is okay if the mother was raped." That fucking fetus didn't rape anyone. "Abortion is wrong because fetuses are people... unless their mother was raped, then let me introduce our little friend to Mount Taygetus." *yeet* Get the fuck out of here with that shit. People get uncomfortable when confronted with the logical conclusion of being "pro-life." That should tell you all you need to know. One side says "abortion is something that should be decided by every woman on a case by case basis," the other says "ALL ABORTION IS WRONG... except when it isn't..." 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
stepee Posted September 10, 2023 Share Posted September 10, 2023 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ominous Posted September 10, 2023 Share Posted September 10, 2023 Accessible prenatal healthcare? Nah. Accessible postnatal healthcare? Nah. Accessible mental healthcare? Nah. Protecting the air and water vital to life? Nah. Access to food for children? Nah. Forcing a woman to stay pregnant? Yeahhhhhhhh life is precious. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TUFKAK Posted September 10, 2023 Share Posted September 10, 2023 1 minute ago, Ominous said: Accessible prenatal healthcare? Nah. Accessible postnatal healthcare? Nah. Accessible mental healthcare? Nah. Protecting the air and water vital to life? Nah. Access to food for children? Nah. Forcing a woman to stay pregnant? Yeahhhhhhhh life is precious. And truthfully I say onto you, the fetuses are precious for they shall inherit my kingdom. The rest of you can get rekt! RepublicanJesus 6:14 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Air_Delivery Posted September 10, 2023 Share Posted September 10, 2023 Fetuses must be born in to the hellscape we've helped create - Republicans. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Air_Delivery Posted September 10, 2023 Share Posted September 10, 2023 As to the actual topic of this thread. This is about the 100th time Republicans have tried to rebrand themsevles in the last 30 years and it has failed every time. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Commissar SFLUFAN Posted September 10, 2023 Share Posted September 10, 2023 8 hours ago, Keyser_Soze said: What about Give Peace a Chance? Absolutely nauseating. 1 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
b_m_b_m_b_m Posted September 10, 2023 Share Posted September 10, 2023 14 hours ago, TUFKAK said: We call that San Francisco lol Take out the “lol” and it fits the meter of the song Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
legend Posted September 10, 2023 Share Posted September 10, 2023 9 hours ago, Fizzzzle said: It makes me glad that other people have come around to "if you are against abortion in any case, you should be against it in every case." I've been saying that for damn near a decade and I used to get flamed for it. If abortion is murder, then the child being a product of rape doesn't make it any less murder. You can't just say "murder is okay if the mother was raped." That fucking fetus didn't rape anyone. "Abortion is wrong because fetuses are people... unless their mother was raped, then let me introduce our little friend to Mount Taygetus." *yeet* Get the fuck out of here with that shit. People get uncomfortable when confronted with the logical conclusion of being "pro-life." That should tell you all you need to know. One side says "abortion is something that should be decided by every woman on a case by case basis," the other says "ALL ABORTION IS WRONG... except when it isn't..." That doesn't follow unless you think you must govern decisions by absolute rules devoid of context and arbitrarily dictated. Which yes, many "moral" systems aim for, in which case see my previous comment on the cancer of a term that is "morality" and how it makes everyone stop thinking "Murder" as a term is useful as a legal construct for dictating large-scale social policy, but that's it. The underlying issue here is you're killing something, and yes, killing something, even fully developed people (of which fetuses most certainly are not), is sometimes appropriate depending on the context. To not consider context and all the impacts of a decision is madness. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chadatog Posted September 10, 2023 Share Posted September 10, 2023 3 hours ago, Commissar SFLUFAN said: Absolutely nauseating. What about Why can't we be friends? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MarSolo Posted September 10, 2023 Share Posted September 10, 2023 I haven’t read this entire thread, but did no one here not end this argument by quoting Carlin? Quote “Pro-life conservatives are obsessed with the fetus from conception to 9 months. After that, they don’t wanna know about you. They don’t wanna hear from you. No nothing! No neonatal care, no daycare, no Head Start, no school lunch, no food stamps, no welfare, no nothing. If you’re pre-born, you’re fine, if you’re preschool, you’re fucked.” 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Keyser_Soze Posted September 10, 2023 Share Posted September 10, 2023 6 minutes ago, MarSolo said: I haven’t read this entire thread, but did no one here not end this argument by quoting Carlin? On 9/8/2023 at 9:57 AM, TUFKAK said: 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Commissar SFLUFAN Posted September 10, 2023 Share Posted September 10, 2023 25 minutes ago, Chadatog said: What about Why can't we be friends? Never heard of it. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chadatog Posted September 10, 2023 Share Posted September 10, 2023 18 minutes ago, Commissar SFLUFAN said: Never heard of it. Why Can't We Be Friends? (song) - Wikipedia EN.WIKIPEDIA.ORG 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
b_m_b_m_b_m Posted September 20, 2023 Share Posted September 20, 2023 Ohio abortion law meant weeks of 'anguish,' 'agony' for couple whose unborn child had organs outside her body | CNN WWW.CNN.COM Just when Beth and Kyle Long received the worst news of their life, an Ohio law made their searing pain even worse. Tragic story made worse by so-called pro-life laws 4 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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