Jwheel86 Posted January 24, 2022 Share Posted January 24, 2022 Quote The options include sending 1,000 to 5,000 troops to Eastern European countries, with the potential to increase that number tenfold if things deteriorate. r/Army is lit right now. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Commissar SFLUFAN Posted January 24, 2022 Share Posted January 24, 2022 A measure of autonomy in eastern Ukraine is the only way out of this crisis | Simon Jenkins | The Guardian WWW.THEGUARDIAN.COM Nato’s treatment of Russia almost guaranteed a chauvinistic reflex. The way forward is to implement the Minsk settlement, says the Guardian columnist Simon Jenkins Quote The reality is that the west took a calculated gamble in expanding Nato in the 1990s. There was no suggestion of imitating Finland’s careful and pragmatic neutrality towards its Baltic neighbours that lie in Russia’s sphere of influence. Nato had post-Soviet Russia on the floor and simply could not resist the opportunity of kicking the country when it was already down. The way Nato treated Russia almost guaranteed there would be a chauvinist reflex. Moscow’s initial feelers from Boris Yeltsin that it might associate with Nato were rebuffed. Mooted associations with the EU were ridiculed. Everything was done to rub Russia’s nose in its shame. Putin and his present antics were the predictable result. The Russian president has now indicated that he wants the 2015 Minsk II settlement implemented. That settlement is sound. It requires autonomy for Russian-speaking Donbas, an end to Nato expansionism, Russian withdrawal and a reinstatement of Ukraine’s border. Samantha Power, US ambassador to the United Nations at the time of Russia’s invasion of Ukraine, remarked that Minsk was the “only viable way out of this deadly conflict”. Subsequent US administrations have supported that position. Yet no one has applied sufficient diplomatic effort to put it in place. Any reasonable observer would see Minsk as a practical and fair way out of this crisis. It has largely been blocked by a Kyiv regime that has long feared Donbas’s pro-Russian sentiment and resisted its “home rule”. Recognise the autonomy of the Donbas region, Putin says, and he will withdraw. He cannot want to keep 100,000 troops mobilised on the Donbas border indefinitely, any more than he can seriously fear a western army storming east across Ukraine. I cannot agree with the part that I italicized, highlighted, and underlined strenuously enough! The "Finlandization" of the former Soviet republics/former Warsaw Pact states would've unquestionably been the best course of action, but NOOOOOOOOOOOO - the West/NATO just had to engage in a fair bit of triumphalism with the inevitable result of the position in which we find ourselves now. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CitizenVectron Posted January 24, 2022 Author Share Posted January 24, 2022 48 minutes ago, Commissar SFLUFAN said: A measure of autonomy in eastern Ukraine is the only way out of this crisis | Simon Jenkins | The Guardian WWW.THEGUARDIAN.COM Nato’s treatment of Russia almost guaranteed a chauvinistic reflex. The way forward is to implement the Minsk settlement, says the Guardian columnist Simon Jenkins I cannot agree with the part that I italicized, highlighted, and underlined strenuously enough! The "Finlandization" of the former Soviet republics/former Warsaw Pact states would've unquestionably been the best course of action, but NOOOOOOOOOOOO - the West/NATO just had to engage in a fair bit of triumphalism with the inevitable result of the position in which we find ourselves now. Yep, NATO took the one course of action (out of a possible three) that was guaranteed to provoke Russia long-term: Leave Russia alone, and the countries in its orbit Get closer with Russia and support them, similar to post-WWII Germany/Japan Leave Russia itself alone, but try and "steal" the countries in its orbit (we have a winner!) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mclumber1 Posted January 24, 2022 Share Posted January 24, 2022 But if those countries would rather be allied/aligned with the US, instead of being neutral or a puppet state of Russia, we should have told them to fuck off? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Commissar SFLUFAN Posted January 24, 2022 Share Posted January 24, 2022 1 minute ago, mclumber1 said: But if those countries would rather be allied/aligned with the US, instead of being neutral or a puppet state of Russia, we should have told them to fuck off? Yes. Again, the United States of America has zero strategic interest in those states. They offer us nothing but a headache. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CitizenVectron Posted January 24, 2022 Author Share Posted January 24, 2022 39 minutes ago, mclumber1 said: But if those countries would rather be allied/aligned with the US, instead of being neutral or a puppet state of Russia, we should have told them to fuck off? Yes and no. If they want to be friends, that's great. If they want US military assets stationed there, then they should fuck off. The US and Russia can't risk war. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Commissar SFLUFAN Posted January 24, 2022 Share Posted January 24, 2022 Wow - a whole 8,500 troops. That just goes to show just how much of an annoyance this situation is rather than a "legitimate" crisis. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
b_m_b_m_b_m Posted January 24, 2022 Share Posted January 24, 2022 Interesting take Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Commissar SFLUFAN Posted January 24, 2022 Share Posted January 24, 2022 6 minutes ago, b_m_b_m_b_m said: Interesting take I read the War on the Rocks article earlier today and agreed with large parts of it, but I come back to my same point: Ukraine just isn't worth getting into a shooting war with Moscow over. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
b_m_b_m_b_m Posted January 24, 2022 Share Posted January 24, 2022 No question there. Keeping Germany or old Western Europe in our pocket is worth it but where’s the line? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jason Posted January 24, 2022 Share Posted January 24, 2022 Just now, b_m_b_m_b_m said: No question there. Keeping Germany or old Western Europe in our pocket is worth it but where’s the line? 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
b_m_b_m_b_m Posted January 24, 2022 Share Posted January 24, 2022 1 minute ago, Jason said: Where do Italians go 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jason Posted January 24, 2022 Share Posted January 24, 2022 8 minutes ago, b_m_b_m_b_m said: Where do Italians go Worth it, just so we don't have to hear the endless whining from Italian Americans for not including Italy. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Commissar SFLUFAN Posted January 24, 2022 Share Posted January 24, 2022 15 minutes ago, b_m_b_m_b_m said: No question there. Keeping Germany or old Western Europe in our pocket is worth it but where’s the line? The line is exactly what you just mentioned: "old" Western Europe, and not one millimetre further to the east. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jason Posted January 24, 2022 Share Posted January 24, 2022 Just now, Commissar SFLUFAN said: The line is exactly what you just mentioned: "old" Western Europe. How old is old? One valid definition of Western Europe is just Ireland, the UK, France, Belgium, and the Netherlands. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Commissar SFLUFAN Posted January 24, 2022 Share Posted January 24, 2022 6 minutes ago, Jason said: How old is old? One valid definition of Western Europe is just Ireland, the UK, France, Belgium, and the Netherlands. The original NATO states prior to post-Soviet expansion Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Commissar SFLUFAN Posted January 24, 2022 Share Posted January 24, 2022 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CayceG Posted January 24, 2022 Share Posted January 24, 2022 All of this man-portable stuff is just a drop in the bucket for what Ukraine actually needs. It's significant, sure, but it isn't going to make any strategic difference in the event of a Russian invasion. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
marioandsonic Posted January 24, 2022 Share Posted January 24, 2022 So what's going to happen here? This isn't going to start World War 3 or anything that dramatic is it? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Uaarkson Posted January 24, 2022 Share Posted January 24, 2022 3 minutes ago, marioandsonic said: So what's going to happen here? This isn't going to start World War 3 or anything that dramatic is it? Not even a little Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Commissar SFLUFAN Posted January 24, 2022 Share Posted January 24, 2022 42 minutes ago, CayceG said: All of this man-portable stuff is just a drop in the bucket for what Ukraine actually needs. It's significant, sure, but it isn't going to make any strategic difference in the event of a Russian invasion. Oh sure - the MANPATS/MANPADS are pretty much "symbolic" Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Commissar SFLUFAN Posted January 25, 2022 Share Posted January 25, 2022 Germany isn't too keen on sending weapons to Ukraine: German caution on arms to Ukraine rooted in history, energy | AP News APNEWS.COM BERLIN (AP) — Germany’s refusal to join other NATO members in providing weapons to Ukraine has annoyed some allies and raised questions about Berlin’s resolve in standing up to Russia. The issue rose to the fore over the weekend following a report that Berlin had gone so far as to block Estonia from supplying old German howitzers to Kyiv to help defend itself against Russian troops massing near the Ukrainian the border. Quote Germany’s refusal to join other NATO members in providing weapons to Ukraine has annoyed some allies and raised questions about Berlin’s resolve in standing up to Russia. The issue rose to the fore over the weekend following a report that Berlin had gone so far as to block Estonia from supplying old German howitzers to Kyiv to help defend itself against Russian troops massing near the Ukrainian the border. Germany's stance on arms supplies does “not correspond to the level of our relations and the current security situation," Ukrainian Foreign Minister Dmytro Kuleba said on Twitter. Speaking to reporters Monday in Berlin, German Chancellor Olaf Scholz denied a decision had been made on the howitzers and insisted that his country stands with its NATO and European Union allies in opposing any Russian incursion into Ukraine. “Should this situation occur, we will jointly act," he told reporters. "There would be a high price.” Still, while Germany would continue to provide help to Ukraine, there would be one exception, he said: “We don’t provide any lethal weapons." As expected, NATO will gladly contribute to the "Ukrainian Defense GoFundMe", but will (correctly!) NOT expend actual NATO blood: Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Commissar SFLUFAN Posted January 25, 2022 Share Posted January 25, 2022 US finalizing plans to divert gas to Europe if Russia cuts off supply | US foreign policy | The Guardian WWW.THEGUARDIAN.COM Officials working with global suppliers to avoid European gas crisis in the event that flow from Russia is cut by Putin Quote The US has helped prepare for the diversion of natural gas supplies from around the world to Europe in the event that the flow from Russia is cut, in an effort to blunt Vladimir Putin’s most powerful economic weapon. As fears of an invasion of Ukraine have grown, US officials said on Tuesday that they had been negotiating with global suppliers, and they were now confident that Europe would not suffer from a sudden loss of energy for heating in the middle of winter. “To ensure Europe is able to make it through the winter and spring we expect to be prepared to ensure alternative supplies covering a significant majority of the potential shortfall,” a senior official said. The preparation for bulk gas supplies deliveries is part of a campaign by the US and its European allies to show a united and coherent front to Putin in the hope of deterring him from invading Ukraine. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
brucoe Posted January 25, 2022 Share Posted January 25, 2022 The problem I perceive is that the US, Western Europe and Russia have never figured out a way to move beyond the Cold War, even though the Cold War's purpose was completely gone by 1989. We literally have an entire defense industry that is based on the threat of a world conflict that was somewhat real in the 1970s but not so much after. Instead of slowly eliminating it and moving to post-Cold War technologies, we continue to make bigger and better arms that serve that old purpose, forcing pretty much every other actor to do the same thing, even though there's no purpose behind it. What it will eventually lead to is a conflict where some old, hardened generals are going to see the usefulness of using such stuff because someone else thought it would be a deterrence if we field it, and then someone else fielded there, and then as usual, the people with the least to lose will make the decisions for the people who have everything to lose. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ominous Posted January 25, 2022 Share Posted January 25, 2022 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mclumber1 Posted January 25, 2022 Share Posted January 25, 2022 Liberty ships full of propane and propane accessories to Europe! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jwheel86 Posted January 25, 2022 Share Posted January 25, 2022 1 hour ago, mclumber1 said: Liberty ships full of propane and propane accessories to Europe! And shovels Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fizzzzle Posted January 25, 2022 Share Posted January 25, 2022 3 hours ago, brucoe said: The problem I perceive is that the US, Western Europe and Russia have never figured out a way to move beyond the Cold War, even though the Cold War's purpose was completely gone by 1989. We literally have an entire defense industry that is based on the threat of a world conflict that was somewhat real in the 1970s but not so much after. Instead of slowly eliminating it and moving to post-Cold War technologies, we continue to make bigger and better arms that serve that old purpose, forcing pretty much every other actor to do the same thing, even though there's no purpose behind it. What it will eventually lead to is a conflict where some old, hardened generals are going to see the usefulness of using such stuff because someone else thought it would be a deterrence if we field it, and then someone else fielded there, and then as usual, the people with the least to lose will make the decisions for the people who have everything to lose. Some form of that happens in basically every war. WWI is the prime example. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Signifyin(g)Monkey Posted January 26, 2022 Share Posted January 26, 2022 Excerpt from Matt Taibbi’s on-point takedown of this nonsense, which is fresh out of our same old foreign policy playbook: Quote At the moment the Berlin Wall fell the United States had almost limitless political capital with these soon-to-be ex-Soviet territories. We blew it all within a few years. Now that we’re really in trouble in Ukraine, why would we keep to the same playbook that got us here? Our plan with every foreign country that falls into our orbit is the same. We ride in as saviors, throwing loans in all directions to settle debts (often to us), then let it be known the country’s affairs will henceforth be run through our embassy. Since we’re ignorant of history and have long viewed diplomats too in sync with local customs as liabilities, we tend to fill our embassies with people who have limited sense of the individual character of host countries, their languages, or the attitudes of people outside the capital. Instead of devising individual policies, we go through identical processes of receiving groups of local politicians seeking our backing. We throw our weight behind the courtiers we like best. The winning supplicants are usually Western educated, speak great English, know how to flatter drunk diplomats, and are fluent in neoliberal wonk-speak. We back Our Men in Havana to the hilt, no matter how corrupt they may become in their rule, a process we call “democracy promotion.” The cycle always ends the same way, whether we’re talking about Hamid Karzai or Ayad Allawi or Boris Yeltsin. The white hat ally turns out to be either overmatched or a snake, usually the latter, and siphons off Western aid to himself and his cronies in huge quantities while smashing opposition by any means necessary. That brutality and corruption, combined with efforts to implement our structural adjustment policies (read: austerity, and the de-nationalization of natural resources) inevitably results in loss of popular support and/or the rise of opposition movements on the right, the left, or both. Rising discontent in turn inspires further requests from the puppet for security aid, which we happily provide, since that ultimately is the whole point: selling weapons to foreigners to fill those Washington rice bowls. You will soon hear it in the form of increased calls for defense spending amid the Ukraine mess, but we’ve been at it forever. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CayceG Posted January 26, 2022 Share Posted January 26, 2022 Do you guys want to freebase some absolute bullshit? Invite Russia to join NATO THEHILL.COM It is 30 years after the end of the Cold War — high time to set aside distrust and start constructing a warm and enduring peace among once and future friends. Quote I propose NATO invite Russia to immediately join its ranks, which, of course, requires it to abide by NATO's charter. This includes Article 1, which requires members to: “…settle any international dispute in which they may be involved by peaceful means in such a manner that international peace and security, and justice, are not endangered, and to refrain in their international relations from the threat or use of force in any manner inconsistent with the purposes of the United Nations.” Once Russia is a NATO member, its fear of encirclement will dissipate. Moreover, it will be obligated to peacefully resolve its conflicts with Ukraine. Indeed, it can help enroll Ukraine into its new club — NATO. Russia should also, over time, be invited to join the European Union (EU). lol Quote The EU has had its problems, and Brexit represents a tragic mistake. But the EU and NATO have kept the peace in Europe for 80 years. Try finding an 80-year period between 1000 and 1945 without armed conflict among at least two regions comprising the EU's 27 member nations or NATO's 30 member states. Yes, NATO would have to welcome a member it deeply distrusts. And Russia would need to abide by rules that it would prefer to break. But this is the nature of agreements between adversaries. Both give to get. And as both sides see the value of the agreement, they will take steps to reify it. LOL Quote Thus, Russia's joining NATO, at NATO's behest, immediately eliminates the two concerns at hand. Russia will, effectively, agree to settle its dispute with Ukraine peacefully, and the current NATO allies will, effectively, agree to a peace treaty with Russia. Indeed, a treaty in which they are sworn to its defense, including its defense against attack by a subset of the alliance. lmao Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
b_m_b_m_b_m Posted January 26, 2022 Share Posted January 26, 2022 It would be easier to completely disband nato Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brian Posted January 26, 2022 Share Posted January 26, 2022 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Commissar SFLUFAN Posted January 26, 2022 Share Posted January 26, 2022 9 minutes ago, b_m_b_m_b_m said: It would be easier to completely disband nato Which is exactly what should've happened after December 25, 1991. Like I said before, European security could've been addressed by the Organization for Security and Co-operation in Europe of which the United States and Canada are members. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mclumber1 Posted January 26, 2022 Share Posted January 26, 2022 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jwheel86 Posted January 26, 2022 Share Posted January 26, 2022 32 minutes ago, CayceG said: Do you guys want to freebase some absolute bullshit? Invite Russia to join NATO THEHILL.COM It is 30 years after the end of the Cold War — high time to set aside distrust and start constructing a warm and enduring peace among once and future friends. lol LOL lmao *Laughs in Greek and Turkish.* 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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